So, been thinking about starting a career in web design. I'm just toying with the idea in my mind at the moment. I really enjoy the work I've done with websites over the last few years and I recon it'd be a good thing to go into.

However, I've not had any formal training, and and if asked I can only really say I'm confident in HTML. In your opinion what are the basic coding launguages (and concepts) that I'd need to be comfortable with, if I wanted to start my own business in web design?

Minimum? I'd say that you'll at least have to know HTML and CSS. Beyond that, it really depends on how deep you want to go into it. Web design has grown to include multiple niche industries, so you don't necessarily have to know all of them to make money.

If you're looking for resources on learning, check out this thread.

You can start a career and learn at the same time. There are enough software on the market to make a web designer life easier. Basic coding won't be a hindrance. You can pick up the skills as you go along.

That depends, there are a lot of areas. Are you trying to be a coder? A blogger? A designer? A graphic designer (there's a dif) ? All around, I'd reccomend learning:

1. HTML
2. CSS
3. Understanding PHP on a basic level
3. Same for MYSQL if you're going the coding route.
4. Pick a CMS and learn the ins and outs, I suggest Wordpress for beginners.
5. Photoshop, GIMP, or PSP for images.

It's according to what you want to do. As seen on this forum and elsewhere, some design templates with HTML and CSS. But to me that is not a web designer. Corey has got the right idea but I would put it:
1.HTML
2. CSS
3. A scripting language: PHP, ASP, or AJAX.
4. Database knowledge: MySQL or SQL Server.
5. Image creation.

A web DESIGNER only needs to know HTML and css. Heck, a designer doesn't HAVE to know any language, if you can create a good looking design in photoshop, and competent programmer should be able to piece it up and build the css/html around it to match the photoshop.

However a web DEVELOPER needs to be a designer, programmer, database administrator, and sometimes system admin and network admin as well. Depends on how many hats you want to wear =)

Ah ok... So really I'm pretty much there already! Kinda...

I'm thinking of being a web developer, judging by what you've all said! I wanna create websites (including images, coding and setting up the hosting and maintaining the site afterwards). That's a web developer right?

One interesting thing I noted here, was about CMS's. Would this include e107? I have several sites set up under that CMS and recon I am a pretty competant user in that - but does that count as it's open source?

Originally Posted by nyef

A web DESIGNER only needs to know HTML and css. Heck, a designer doesn't HAVE to know any language, if you can create a good looking design in photoshop, and competent programmer should be able to piece it up and build the css/html around it to match the photoshop.

However a web DEVELOPER needs to be a designer, programmer, database administrator, and sometimes system admin and network admin as well. Depends on how many hats you want to wear =)

I completely agree. I have never used the HTML and CSS that a designer provides. Most of them, unfortunately, are table-based or, if actually done table-less, then there are a mix of inline styles, weird cuts of the graphics which don't help, text that's a standard font, but left in the image, etc... They just don't know all they need to in order to do a good job laying something out via HTML and CSS (not to mention considering SEO). I expect designers to do what I can't: make it look pretty. I'll make it function.

That said, many people who own websites and don't hire a coder aren't able to put together a decent HTML/CSS layout that will be any better than the designer's, so they expect that to be provided. For those people, just cheat and create it using some WYSIWYG editor. Or, if they're willing to pay, hire a web programmer to convert it into an optimal XHTML/CSS layout.

I'm thinking of being a web developer, judging by what you've all said! I wanna create websites (including images, coding and setting up the hosting and maintaining the site afterwards). That's a web developer right?

Yep. Technically "web development" refers mainly to the coding aspect, but for a person that does all these things I've found "developer" is a pretty common appellation. I like it. Much better than "webmaster" -- so 90s. lol =P

but does that count as it's open source?

Bah, I consider a person who uses CMSs exclusively (like people whose only sites are wordpress blogs and scripts bought from others) to be nothing more than a webmaster.

To be a developer you have to do at least SOME custom coding of your own =)

Most of them, unfortunately, are table-based or, if actually done table-less, then there are a mix of inline styles, weird cuts of the graphics which don't help, text that's a standard font, but left in the image, etc... They just don't know all they need to in order to do a good job laying something out via HTML and CSS (not to mention considering SEO). I expect designers to do what I can't: make it look pretty. I'll make it function.

Couldn't have said it better myself =)

That said, many people who own websites and don't hire a coder aren't able to put together a decent HTML/CSS layout that will be any better than the designer's, so they expect that to be provided.

Yep, that's the difference between webmaster and developer I guess. And what you do get when a webmaster tries to do development and a designer tries to do development but there's no programmer to be found? Crappy development.

Just remember, it's easier for a programmer to fake good design than it is for a designer to fake good programming.

And if you're trying to make a business out of it, you'd better have copywriting/content creation, marketing, accounting, legal and leadership ability as well. Or the ability to attract people who do.

Nobody said it was easy but it's a question of how bad do you want it? >=)

Originally Posted by nyef

Bah, I consider a person who uses CMSs exclusively (like people whose only sites are wordpress blogs and scripts bought from others) to be nothing more than a webmaster.

I largely agree. The days of having simply a "web presence" are long gone. Sites targeted as such are simply antiquated. Hell, even blogs, are more than a web presence -- they communicate current thoughts and discoveries. Not just yell "Here I am."


--
Before trying to become a web developer, do your research. You must study. I don't mean by browsing php.net either. I mean truly study. The web is filled with self-proclaimed developers who did a little bit of reading (perhaps a Teach Yourself In 24 Hours book) and then jumped in to coding. The code they create is slow, bloated, and insecure. They are NOT professionals and should NOT be doing any professional work. They are the bane of true developers: people who, by claiming to be what they are not, demean those who have put the time, effort, and frustration in to truly be a programmer.

Now we are getting somewhere. Lots to think about there.

Thanks for the advice guys, I see I still have a lot to learn before I take the next step.

Until I'm there though I'll definately be on here a lot!!

Thanks again everyone

Originally Posted by Spud In Disguise

So, been thinking about starting a career in web design. I'm just toying with the idea in my mind at the moment. I really enjoy the work I've done with websites over the last few years and I recon it'd be a good thing to go into.

However, I've not had any formal training, and and if asked I can only really say I'm confident in HTML. In your opinion what are the basic coding launguages (and concepts) that I'd need to be comfortable with, if I wanted to start my own business in web design?

At a minimum, you're going to need to know the web stack xhtml/ccc/javascript

If you want to work for yourself, then you are going to need to learn server code. For a small shop, PHP is fine. If you were thinking of working in the corp world, I'd suggest Java and the J2EE stack.

Next up, you'll need to learn SQL and a database. For most types of sites, you'll want data stored in a database and generate pages from it. Many will recommend MySQL. It is a fine database but, I'd recommend PostgreSQL instead. MySQL has a rather non-standard form of SQL. The SQL you write for Postgres (in most cases) will also run on DB2 and Oracle DB's.

On to business. There is a lot more to business than just making pages and writing code. Make sure you are up to it. You should write a business plan before jumping in too deep. A very important part of the business is sales. Selling your service. If you can do it, awesome. If not, considering partnering with a salesperson. Someone to make cold calss, knock on doors, etc...

Even though there is a lot of competition, the demand is very high. With some motivation and elbow grease, you should do well.

Good luck

I mostly disagree with everyone on this thread.. lol

First off.. CMSs are a legitimate career boosting skill.. anyone who says otherwise is just pissed because theyve been doing from scratch for thier entire career and here comes joe smith that implements Nuke and wham.. complete site. I mean the idea is to make MONEY right? Time is money

Next.. I think the Java/J2EE route is the wrong way to go for a lot of people.. If you are a code geek at heart or you love complex puzzles, have an awesome memory and can keep up with 20 different version numbers.. Java might be for you..
Another problem with java though is the lack of the commerical HOST providers that allow you to deploy Java applications onto thier server. (Pretty critical if you are just starting out)

So based on the availability of the commercial hosting environment that is out there.. PHP is a good place to start, but there is a lot of BAD PHP out there.. and not nearly enough people are using the latest releases.. I consider PHP kind of that hobbyist, put it up quick type of language.. although its a full features OO language that has produced many a fine product.. it may be the most widely used web programming language out there but there is a lot of room for bad design.

.NET (C#/VB.NET/IronPython etc) is also fairly complex.. but at least its a consolidated message and learning platform. you can go from soup to nutz.. not knowing diddly squat, to producing decent data driven apps using .NET. hot commercial markets right now are .NET based CMSes.. like SharePoint or DotNetNuke.. you could basically set your own hours with a solid background in either of those.

Same could be said with PHP and Drupal though.. sooooo many choices.. not enough time..

Originally Posted by RabidSniper

I mostly disagree with everyone on this thread.. lol

First off.. CMSs are a legitimate career boosting skill.. anyone who says otherwise is just pissed because theyve been doing from scratch for thier entire career and here comes joe smith that implements Nuke and wham.. complete site. I mean the idea is to make MONEY right? Time is money

What? Seriously, what? Really? I hope when you post that you're trying to be serious and not going around disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

Take some time and get your head on straight, dude. Especially before you try ad hominem attacks.

CMS's have value. No one argued against that. I do work, however, for businesses. A business needs to push themselves beyond a simple web presence and into offering services to help draw customers back, complete sales, and increase the overall ROI for their site. Limiting oneself to CMS is foolish and short-sighted.

Being a programmer means more than simply being able to install some pre-written software or tweak a couple of lines of code. It takes time and effort to be well rounded and not just a hobbyist.

Originally Posted by RabidSniper

it may be the most widely used web programming language out there but there is a lot of room for bad design.

Um, any language allows for bad design.


All that said, welcome to the forums. I've checked your thread history and it'll be interesting to see how, with time, your contributions morph.

Originally Posted by JeremyMiller

Being a programmer means more than simply being able to install some pre-written software or tweak a couple of lines of code. It takes time and effort to be well rounded and not just a hobbyist.

I think his point was that there's a continuum. If a person isn't able to write finely crafted code, they might still be able to succeed in their goals with the use of a CRM.

Originally Posted by JeremyMiller

Um, any language allows for bad design.

I wish that wasn't true, but it is. At least the programmers understand this, and are taking steps to correct it. I thought this post (titled "A buffer overflow? In 2008? Seriously?") was a good example

Man, they're not even trying are they? This day an age, not only is there no excuse to ship with such a basic flaw, there's really no excuse to be programming in a fashion that would allow it. It's so easy to audit for basic overflows (at least on Windows) that it's silly. Even just compiling /GS with VC++ should protect you against a lot. Seriously, people give MS a bad rap these days, but any exploit you're going to see in their software these days usually takes advantage of complex system interactions or odd exception throwing.


Apple should take a serious look at their coding practices and consider banning the use of unsafe CRT functions and using _s versions of any C functions their using (Visual C++ has them and they're part of the next standard) or at a minimum requiring audits of all raw pointers. Static analysis tools should also be mandatory and should catch most issues.


(http://www.spinroot.com/static/)

Well I wasnt really "attacking" you.. but I could see how youd think that.. my point was that there is a lot more to CMS than web presence.. simple or otherwise.. its about managing content.. and the tools and workflows that go into allowing large (and small) organizations achieve the things they want to do..

Business customers want functionality, flexibility and above all, they dont want to have to call you (or me) for our 150/hour service rate to come and update some web content.. thats where CMS comes in.. okay so its not programming out of the box.. but in a lot of ways I think there is tremendous value to learning one or two of the most popular systems.. such as Nuke or Drupal.. If you learn how to MODIFY and CUSTOMIZE those systems.. you can stick to writing code to solve the problems you are paid to.. the business problems.

Of course, its not ALL cms.. I never said that actually I said.. CMS is a legit thing to get started with in web development.

In my firm (like many).. we have the 80/20 rule... 80% should be mostly implementation and 20% should be customization.. if you are writting custom member and profile providers, blogs, wikis, file uploads, image galleries etc.. by scratch.. then a lot of time "in my opinion".. you are not doing right by your customer.

PS: Thanks for the welcome!! Also.. I dont respond to flames about my typing or spelling. anything else is fair game!

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

I think his point was that there's a continuum. If a person isn't able to write finely crafted code, they might still be able to succeed in their goals with the use of a CRM.

Fair enough. I just found the post offense and over-simplified. The OP was looking for guidance on being a pro and, to me, what Rabid suggested was not the philosophy of a pro, but those who plague the internet under the guise of being professional. I was just sufficiently shocked and taken aback that I felt a need to address it. Perhaps it was a bit of an overreaction on my part, but I'll blame it on my passionate love of programming.

Originally Posted by RabidSniper

Of course, its not ALL cms.. I never said that actually I said.. CMS is a legit thing to get started with in web development.

The implication seemed to be present. I suggest, however, that CMS "to get started" is fine if by "get started" one means "for oneself". If CMS is all one knows then, in my never-humble opinion, that individual ought not to take on professional work. My mother always told me to do something right or not at all and programming, my deepest passion, is something I prefer to encourage people to "do right or not at all."

Originally Posted by RabidSniper

PS: Thanks for the welcome!! Also.. I dont respond to flames about my typing or spelling. anything else is fair game!

It wasn't a flame, but a polite and indirect encouragement. As you recognize spelling difficulty, let me recommend Firefox which has inline highlighting of spelling errors.

BTW: You've chosen a great forum to join!

Okay.. So I see your point.. but here is where I will disagree.

Say you have a customer that says..
"Hey I want this great website.. it should have a place so I can list dates and announcements, and I want RSS feeds and I want to have my own blog.. oh and maybe my employees can have their own blog too! and maybe a place to download files like Media clips and images.. Maybe a message board and to top it off, I want an ecommerce section.."

So.. not a totally unlikely story is it? In fact, in the end.. thats probably what most of the customers Ive ever had want.. pretty much a list of all of those things.. Now granted, there are lots of customization ideas and fancy visions that may be in their head.. but in the end its about Dollars and Cents -vs- Functionality.

Now I could approach that task two ways.. 1. I could piece together a custom implemenation of all of those feature requests, deug them all to work in unity.. dont forget we have to have custom Membership and profile data since they want blogs, wikis and message boards.. etc.. So I could code those all by hand, and believe me I HAVE.. but how long is that going to take? How much of my time is that going to take really..? I think we both know the answer to that..

Whereas, I could start with the critical foundation.. such as a CMS or other framework that produces a scafolding type environment.. and build the customized needs that dont come out of the box.. implement 80%, customize 20%. (roughly speaking of course).

Thats my point.. in the end your customers will be happier and you will spend less time and yeah you might make less money on the initial launch of the site.. but its a lot more likely your customer will come back.. when its not QUITE what they want..

CMS allows us to release early with the 80% core functionality and filter out what the customers realllllllly want.. thats my point.. Im not saying.. all CMS.. im saying it has its place and is a way to get "into" the market.

I mean, really.. you cant even implement any decent CMS without customizing it to have your own style or theme.. that WOULD be just tacky and unprofessional.. so at the very least HTML / CSS

that make sense?

Originally Posted by RabidSniper

Whereas, I could start with the critical foundation.. such as a CMS or other framework that produces a scafolding type environment.. and build the customized needs that dont come out of the box.. implement 80%, customer 20%. (roughly speaking of course).

We do not differ here. I have recommended to clients who have wanted stuff built from the ground up this very method b/c of the reasons that you suggest.

But, as you said of yourself, I could build it from the ground up. I can also patch those CMS's when they have bugs without having to wait for their coders (as, I'm sure, you can as well) -- In fact, for my product I patched the XML-RPC engine of an open source CMS to conform to the specifications. To me, such ability is something one ought to have before they go around offering their services as a CMS installer/customizer.

Your 2 posts previous to your last could easily lead one to believe that simply being able to install a CMS and a make a few tweaks was enough. I'm glad we have discussed it further as the OP (and others visiting with the same question) can see a more complete discussion of your point.

P.S. I can't help but add in here that I already like how your posts are morphing. Not that you should care about what I think.