Well I couldn't find this post anywhere else so I figured that I'd open up the question for debate I've been using tables for as long as I can remember,(apart from when I started off for the first few weeks I was using layers ). So is this the next logical step in my own, and perhaps others web development skills. Is CSS / using <div> tags now a better method of structuring a page insted of using tables which many of us are oh so familiar with.

In my opinion right now I'm sill comfortable using tables, thanks to the column and row structure it has, its easy to remember what goes where. But this could easily be resolved with CSS etc, so where is everyone else in this debate? If I (and others) can improve their skills as a result, why not

That's half-correct. CSS and tableless layouts are the way to go, but eventually you need to learn what tags are supposed to be used for what, and it's not always divs (although, to be fair, that's the prevailing published opinion). For example, ULs are better for menus, and sometimes tables do still fit (if you have data that's Excel-spreadsheet-like in nature).

That's the general idea behind what CSS is all about. The right tool (tag) for the right job.

Just to clear something up before we start, CSS and HTML are two completely different things but work well together.

HTML is for marking up page structure using tags, ie headings, paragraphs, lists, forms, tables etc, while CSS is used to define how the HTML tags should be presented, ie position, size, colour, width/height etc.

Right, now that's out of the way onto your question.

Like many other designers here I used to use tables for structure but that was before browsers widely supported CSS. It did take a while for me to get round to switching to full CSS layouts but I'm really glad I made the effort - for me at least it's given me a whole lot more flexibility with the way I do things. Once you get to grips with CSS you'll wonder what the hell you were doing mucking about with tables for everything!

If you're comfortable using tables for layout then carry on, but if you don't take time to learn anything new you will find it harder and harder to catch up. Also if you design commercially don't be surprised if clients specify "no table based layouts" - many of my customers are already asking questions like these, if you get asked what are you going to do?

I'd say dive in and start learning. Make yourself a test site and practice creating layouts, change things around, and play with it. the more you do the more you learn.

I don't think we need to start this very OLD debate again, if you search you'll find LOTS of posts on the exact same subject.

You've already been given the answers, tables should not be used for layout. They are and always were meant for tabular DATA.

You should read thru this presentation:
http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/everything.html

Then get yourself a good book - like this one:
http://www.sitepoint.com/books/css2/

I use Lynx at times, it's a text only browser and pages tend to show up funny if you use tables.

Originally Posted by LadynRed

I don't

Lord have mercy!

Did you have a bad hair day or did Adam make you a new avatar?

10K thanks for the TRouBLe recipe as I convert tables to CSS over the weekend.

LOL
No, Seranfae has made those evil avatars.. I just umm.. modified mine a bit - you can get one for yourself too.

Just because it's ugly doesn't mean I made it. There are a lot of ugly graphic drawer people besides me.

Just because it's ugly doesn't mean I made it

ROFL !!!
Adam, you don't like my she-turtle ??

<----- It originally looked like this, but red:
http://www.webmaster-talk.com/genera...ot-a-scam.html
if you want to use one. My wife is of the opinion that they're all ugly. Hmmph. Art critics. Can't get away from 'em.

I finally broke free from using tables for layout myself, even as a fallback, and I'm glad I did. It doesn't limit what you can do, it actually expands it.

Originally Posted by serandfae

My wife is of the opinion that they're all ugly. Hmmph. Art critics. Can't get away from 'em.

Tell her -------------

There are several sites that have examples on various layouts using CSS only. They are good to learn from and to build a tabless site around.

Yeah the book LadynRed recommends is very good. I just finished reading it. It's up to date, explains everything very well, and has a very helpful appendix at the end that briefly explains every CSS property and it's compatibility with browsers.

Of course browsers like FireFox, Safari and Opera could have added support for some of those rarely used properties since then, but that compatibility information will still be helpful for years to come concerning IE6.

It's really much easier not to have to count tds, figure out colspan, and everything else that goes with tables. Making sure everything is perfect when you use a more complicated structure for layout than you can get away with turns out to be more work than just getting over the learning curve, at least in my experience.

CSS make the site far more better...
i used to create site that are made from tables right now im familiar with table less sites

I like to use both, tables are very handy when you need to add a few items to a div like a logo, text and adsence all on one line. And if you ever need to split a div into sections with out messing around with the css file tables are good for that just a small bit of code does it.

tables are very handy when you need to add a few items to a div like a logo, text and adsence all on one line

That is hardly a reason to use a table when that can easily be done with CSS !

Tables are meant for TABULAR DATA - NOT layout ! Using them as above is just lazy coding.

I must say, it's actually easier to get the look I want using CSS, working with tables was hard work and left me with very little actual designing abilities. Now the only one table remains to be determined for removal or not, it hold semi-tabular data, but it's only tabular data because I think of it as tabular data and could easily be thought of as something else.

Originally Posted by LadynRed

That is hardly a reason to use a table when that can easily be done with CSS !

Tables are meant for TABULAR DATA - NOT layout ! Using them as above is just lazy coding.

I dont mean the whole layout just one part on one page stops the need to have to create css files for idividual pages when you can use the same one just by adding a simple bit of code.

stops the need to have to create css files for idividual pages

It is rarely necessary to have a separate CSS file for an individual page.
You just need to learn more about CSS.

On that line you will be laying out with CSS, it can be put in an id or class in your CSS file. You may be able to reuse them elsewhere on your site.