Ok, basically ive been using tables for the last few years perfectly happily until CSS comes in and takes over modern layouts design!

Im now confused as to which to go for, im very reluctant to switch entirely to CSS as ive tried using it properly and still far prefer tables.

Ive got a few questions:

- Is it ok to still use tables? Ive noticed a fair few big sites still do.
- whats best to use when designing with CSS- layers or DIV tags or both? (im using Dreamweaver 8 by the way).
- is it a good idea to combine div tags (rather than layout cells) with layout tables, such as site like Amazon do?
- are people beginning to frown upon tables as frames are now frowned upon?

Thanks
Adam

here are a few links I've gathered over the years on "How to use CSS for layouts". This list has links to information on "why" you should use DIV/CSS for layouts and "how" to use them with tutorials and code.

"why"
A better way to build your website
Why tables for layout is stupid: problems defined, solutions offered
Ten ways to speed up the download time of your web pages
Nested Tables: About the (ab)use of tables as layout tools in webpages.
Why Tables Are Bad (For Layout) Compared to Semantic HTML + CSS
Why go table free?
Why avoiding tables (for layout) is important

"how"
BonRouge's layouts
pmob.co.uk layouts
The Noodle Incident: CSS Boxes
glish.com - CSS Layout technique
bluerobot.com - Layout Reservoir
Alistapart - In Search of the Holy Grail
Alistapart - Creating Liquid Layouts with Negative Margins
Alistapart - Faux Columns


There's a good start.

- Is it ok to still use tables? Ive noticed a fair few big sites still do.

Tables should be used for tabular data, not the overall layout. Lots of those big sites use content management systems that only spew table-based layouts.

- whats best to use when designing with CSS- layers or DIV tags or both? (im using Dreamweaver 8 by the way).

They are the same thing ! "Layers" was the old Netscape connotation and it really needs to DIE. DW still refers to DIVs as 'layers', hopefully they'll stop that nonsense soon.

- is it a good idea to combine div tags (rather than layout cells) with layout tables, such as site like Amazon do?

That depends on your layout. As I said above, tables for overall layout are no longer the recommended or modern way to build sites.

- are people beginning to frown upon tables as frames are now frowned upon?

Depends on who you talk to. If you ask people like me and a few others here who are/have moved onward with CSS-based layouts and semantic markup, tables for layout are taboo.

In addition to the links above, I would suggest you cruise thru CSS Zen Garden -www.csszengarden.com and have a look at what can be accomplised with just good markup and CSS - no tables ! I would also suggest joining CSS-Discuss.org list, they can and will help you and the WIKI there is an excellent source.

Originally Posted by LadynRed

Depends on who you talk to. If you ask people like me and a few others here who are/have moved onward with CSS-based layouts and semantic markup, tables for layout are taboo.

Couldn't agree with you more!

well thanks guys but im still very reluctant to switch to css when tables are so much easier to implement

Adam -- tables might be easier for some to implement, but CSS is far easier to code and control your site ... try to learn CSS, as you'll see how fast and easy it is compared to the old tables standard -- today's Web standards are doing away with tables and going the way of CSS.

One of the biggest advantages (besides streamlining your pages) with CSS is site maintenance and redesign. With tables and nested tables, you've got a mess of stuff to go thru if you want to change anything and it is compounded if you have a large site with lots of pages.

With CSS, you can make changes to an entire site, no matter how many pages you have, by changing just a few lines in a CSS file. So the time savings can be HUGE.

I would urge you to read the article linked above titled "Why Tables for Layout is Stupid", it will give you all the reasons why CSS is better for layout than the old 1995-ish tables.

Well i was stuck in the same dilemma as you and took me a while to find out what was the best way for my CSS layouts; i chose to opt for the "box" and absolute positioning and i am pleased with it, i have also cross-browser checked the test pages with browserhots.org and they look ok. I have to now admit that i have been won over with CSS, even though in the beginning it was a pain in the backside to learn, it all came to me in the end and i am getting the hang of it.

My test pages are as follows:

http://www.spiritfolk.com/test.htm and http://www.spiritfolk.com/template.htm

Originally Posted by adam h

Ok, basically ive been using tables for the last few years perfectly happily until CSS comes in and takes over modern layouts design!

Im now confused as to which to go for, im very reluctant to switch entirely to CSS as ive tried using it properly and still far prefer tables.

Ive got a few questions:

- Is it ok to still use tables? Ive noticed a fair few big sites still do.
- whats best to use when designing with CSS- layers or DIV tags or both? (im using Dreamweaver 8 by the way).
- is it a good idea to combine div tags (rather than layout cells) with layout tables, such as site like Amazon do?
- are people beginning to frown upon tables as frames are now frowned upon?

Thanks
Adam

i agree, css is easy, i was having a hard time undderstand some stuff, but i posted on here and i got help, now i can make layout with CSS.

I read all these comments with interest. I am a huge fan of CSS but still cant get used to moving away from using a table to define my main layout. Mostly because one of the things I like is to eb able to use a set width & center my layout neither of which I can get to successfully work in CSS - frustratingly.

Once I have these things sorted out I will happily switch.

I recently designed a site completely in CSS [this is its demo stage still have to sort out optimisation of graphics, links, proof read etc B4 launch]. The biggest problem I had was the footer. To get the footer where I wanted it I had to create a seperate CSS sheet for every page because the footer was in a slightly different place & with absolute positioning it would not simply float underneath the last DIV tag. I have read two or 3 excellent books now all of which were mostly useless as I already knew the basics of designing with CSS & just wanted layout & then they did not solve this issue.

When they introduce centering to div tags & layout I will be really happy!!! Until then I am still stuck in table land trying to solve a puzzle!

one of the things I like is to eb able to use a set width & center my layout neither of which I can get to successfully work in CSS

Actually, that's pretty easy with CSS. I gave you the exact steps in your other post.

As for the footer problem, there are several ways to make a footer stay below the rest of your content and it does not entail any absolute positioning. I think I gave you a link to one method in your other post too.

I hate to admit it but, I tried to use .css instead of tables but never had any luck.

Anyone have sample code for a 3 column layout?

As a newbie to the site, I would like to add that I've just started self-teaching myself CSS, and the more I read the more I want to throw a party! Using tables for layout may be easier in some aspacts, but it is so limited in what it can let you do. (Not to mention a pain to tweak.) I quickly realized that to build websites that are flexible (remember, time is money!) and that can offer a really awesome design, CSS is the way to go.

I'm intelligent, but I need plain instructions when I learn technical items. So I do what I always do: I bought the CSS Web Design for Dummies. (Yes, I said that proudly!) Because those Dummies books allow me to really grasp the fundamentals, and then I can build on from there.

I'm with LadynRed...tables were never meant to be used for layout, and they need to go back to whence they came!

Anyone have sample code for a 3 column layout?

Pull down some 3-column layouts from here and learn what you can:
http://www.openwebdesign.org/browse.php

I too am new to CSS layouts. I was a dedicated table man myself. I think the biggest thing to understand is the box model: what it is and how it works. Honestly, a 3 column CSS layout with fixed widths is so much easier once you understand the box model and floating.

Hi Guys - ok I have spent 3 nights testing various example codes out to try & get this sorted out. I have at last managed to get something close tro what I want with one or two tweeks I will be there.

The problem I had was centering the code primarily. Then adjusting footer under various columns of different hights. Then getting one colum to appear to split into cells.

I understand the box CSS very well as I have actually used this for some time to format my tables. Eg padding, borders, margins etc etc

Thanks to ladyNRed I have now sorted out the fixed width and center issue (at least in IE since the fix does not work in firefox) and just have a few more tweeks. I will post the code up so you can all see!

First I need to get baby dressed before he wrecks the office trying to climb the filing cabinet and brains himself on the desk! men are soooo demanding - bless him lol .

FF doesn't need a "fix", you just need the margin: 0 auto to make FF center, provided you also give the element you're centering a width.

Hi there I have tried tweeking the code - check this post for my latest round of problems. Thanks to LadyNRed my learning curve is peaking upwards. I keep solving something only to find I have new questions. I do hope once I get all these issues sorted I will be awarded some sort of coloured belt as testimony to my CSS battles. I am aiming for the black belt of course - the master guru - or attempting anyway at CSS layouts... LOL.

For the moment I am still tearing my hair out !!! Or maybe I am simply looking for tough answers when the solution is simple ???

http://www.webmaster-talk.com/css-fo...tml#post336646