General Discussions

**Turbo6PGT** · 09-04-2007, 04:01 PM

I have a 2-yr degree in computer science and online programming and its hard to find any kind of jobs where I live. Ive been contracting for the past 4-5 years doing small jobs that barely pay the bills and Im sick of it. I need to find something more stable but Im starting to think my career in web design is shot and I may have to go back to school.Just for an example of Ohios wonderous economy, 80% of the people who have bought homes in my county the last 5 years have been forclosed on heh. NOT GOOD! Jobs are hard to find so the only thing in my field is freelance stuff and its so hard to get your foot in the door because so many other people doing it now. So I guess Im just wanting advice from those of you who are successful being a freelance web designer. How do you advertise and keep business going all year long?

Mainly Im a photoshop guru but I create small websites for small business as well. My skills have been devoted to one area of design the last 5-6 years so I dont have much experience with anything other than the little bit of C#.net, some old cold fusion and photoshop. With those tools Im outdated and dont know what direction to go to try getting more business. I dont charge half as much as some of these small design companies do yet I dont get business, likely from lack of knowing how to advertise. I just feel lost because the technology being used today is ebyond my comprehension and thats the only full time jobs that are available in my area. If anyone can give me some pointers, advice or suggestions on possible options I'dbe glad to hear them because I just dont know where to go from here!

**ADAM Web Design** · 09-04-2007, 04:37 PM

Don't think what I'm about to say isn't sympathetic, because it is intended to be, and I really am trying to help you.

Your problem is that you're approaching the issue from the wrong angle. Most people you do freelance work don't give a **** if you know Photoshop or Paint Shop or if you design web pages in a donut shop as long as you can give them what they want.

In order to get the shot to give them what they want, you need to market to people on their terms. Look at their businesses. Understand them. Learn the skills you need to help them solve their problems, whether it's Photoshop, Cold Fusion, ASP, PHP, HTML, CSS, Ruby on Rails, spitting off a bridge onto cars, it doesn't matter as long as it works for them. Make them money, and you'll make it in turn. People are incredibly loyal for the most part (there are exceptions) to those who enhance their business.

Once you understand that, the economy can be good, bad, or indifferent and it won't matter a bit to you.

**Turbo6PGT** · 09-04-2007, 05:18 PM

I dont blame anyone for my job woes except myself. Ive let my skills deteriorate to where Im at now so its all on my shoulders. Im just not sure what programming languages I should focus on. Maybe I should gear myself toward the spitting off a bridge crowd lol.

**ADAM Web Design** · 05:46 PM

Again, there really isn't a right or a wrong answer as far as what languages to focus on. It really depends on what your clients want.

If they want stuff related to Access, ASP is the way to go (and yes, these clients do exist).

If they want something quick, cheap and easy, well, you might not even need a server-side programming language (save maybe SHTML for layout reasons.)

It really depends on what your market wants, and there's no substitute for market research.

If you want a quick way to do it, check out the freelance job postings. See what those people want. It won't fully reflect the types of jobs out there, but it will give you a rough idea.

By the way, big up for your honesty. At least you admitted the reason for your issues, and that's the first step. You kick your own *** like that, you generally get a lot further ahead in life. Good on ya.

**dansgalaxy** · 06:29 PM

im not experienced, at all, im 15 but i would like to think i have a decent understanding of websites and the like.

I would suggest, possibly expanding so you can offer more, try learning a established server side langauge, then it could enable you (once you have REALLY learnt and are advanced) to create some good CMS like sites. especially if you have the design ability to go with it (which i dont

)

all i can say is if you do do this make it decent - i cant bare to use my school site it just makes me cringe in so many ways especially when i know my schools spend heafty amounts of money on it and i honestly think for a hell of alot of the back end scripting i can and have made better.
(incase your interested http://greendown.virtualschools.net)

anyway, also maybe you could also cover more graphic desingn (if your capable)

And maybe if the econmoy is that bad move?

hope this helps in some way

Dan

**jim1228** · 09-04-2007, 07:30 PM

I am from Ohio too. LOL… it has to do with greedy upper management and offshoring. Many American corporations (not all) sold out American jobs for overseas sweatshop programmers. They claim that they cannot find skilled local employees (untrue) for their excuse to pay cheap foreign labor. I know how you feel, but we are on our own in this world and we have to compete. The work world is becoming global and very competitive, so you have to change the way you think of employment and business. Many of these so-called American companies have no interest in America’s economic future. They are in essence destroying their own business economy. This is why I work for myself and do not depend on American employment no more. Learn PHP because its global reach is very powerful and will continue to get bigger and dominate the server-side programming world because it’s free! Don’t be brainwashed by the media monopolies. I been brainwashed for too long myself.

**freki** · 09-04-2007, 07:30 PM

If I'm understanding this correctly...your focus is on photoshop correct? Design? If that were me, I think I would hook up with a coder and tackle things as a partnership. You can learn from each other and with two perspectives on things I bet you see a little more creativity coming from your work. Just an idea.

**ForrestCroce** · 09-04-2007, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

If they want stuff related to Access, ASP is the way to go (and yes, these clients do exist).

Actually, you'd be surprised how many small shops would prefer Access. I've had clients tell me to do whatever needs to be done, but if Access is even a remote possibility they'll be thrilled. These are almost always small shops, with no in-house tech knowledge. The kind of people who wouldn't know where to begin installing SQL Server, but aren't intimidated by Access.

I wouldn't focus too much on ASP though. The US job market from pre-.net ASP is all about maintenance programming, and converting source code. Having changed jobs a few times over the last few months, in Seattle and the metro area, I haen't seen a single job wanting to pay someone to write new asp pages. But there are plenty who'd like ASP experience because they have a system that runs both types of pages.

So I'd take the C# you've learned and focus some on using it to write web server code. I'd also consider things like this niche a friend of mine discovered: AutoCAD now exposes its engine and all the data about each drawing through a .net interface. My friend is building software to let people throughout the company use the designs in different, clever ways, and to be able to run queries against drawings. Some of this will be web based. The guy has been a drafter for a decade, so knows his target market in and out, but he's also got a novel idea to sell.

I don't know your skill set and background enough to really help you brainstorm for ideas to set you apart. But Dan had a few ... if you're more of a Photoshop guru than a web anything, design skills are more rare than coding skills are. I can't tell you how many "shops" I worked in where one person would "draw" the page in Photoshop, and another would turn that into html, or whatever server-side language they use to generate html.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim1228

I am from Ohio too. LOL… it has to do with greedy upper management and offshoring. Many American corporations (not all) sold out American jobs for overseas sweatshop programmers. They claim that they cannot find skilled local employees (untrue)

You're describing H1-B visas. My experience is that the people who get them aren't treated as well as they deserve by their employers. I worked alongside a Crystal Reports developer - talk about ancient technology - on a skilled worker visa; he told me he got paid once every 45 days, although his employer billed the customer weekly ... and collected interest for a month and a half. On the coasts, we say H1-B's exist because corporations can't get skilled local employees at a price they want to pay.

The last time I was in Ohio my car broke down in I-76, and it set me back half a day. So of course the best advice is to move somewhere else with a better job market.

**mackaltman** · 09-04-2007, 10:35 PM

No offense but half of the people that actually make money in OH end up doing it outside. I know a lot of people in OH who hate the economy, but then so do those in West Virginia. If you're in the field of computer programming, I believe they failed in teaching you that you need to better market yourself. If there aren't tons of businesses around you, then you need to move, or find a new profession. Granted freelancers can make a substantial living, but that's only if you're very convincing over the internet/phone/fax. It won't however help you in stability. What will be stable is if you find yourself in a government position. For instance a friend of mine is working as a county IT Architect, and only has 2 year degree in computer programming.

Also, remember that going to school isn't an end all solution. Once you find yourself in a certain industry, you must stay in touch with that industry, whether its continuous training, reading, or anything else. That is why CPAs (Accountants) are required to take courses every year, or they lose their certification, because if they didn't stay up to date they would be left behind.

**Giselle** · 09-04-2007, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freki

If I'm understanding this correctly...your focus is on photoshop correct? Design? If that were me, I think I would hook up with a coder and tackle things as a partnership. You can learn from each other and with two perspectives on things I bet you see a little more creativity coming from your work. Just an idea.

Actually this is a pretty good idea Turbo6PGT, I have seen quite a few partnerships where each excels at what they do best and are very successful busniesswise.

**ADAM Web Design** · 09-05-2007, 12:45 AM

I'd support that idea as well. There's one really good partnership of two women over at http://www.alphageekwebdesign.com/aboutus.html that you can check out. They're similar in a lot of ways, but there are differences.

**dansgalaxy** · 09-05-2007, 12:35 PM

thats what i really need is a partener who can do design/css because i just dont have the nack at all, and am by far more of a programmer. and would prefer to get more advnaced with PHP than to try and learn how to design. but no one seems to be willing to do it like this, and i would have to either pay them to do a design, or have to get the design and then play with it to get it to actually work with the site

**Learning Newbie** · 09-05-2007, 04:24 PM

I think that's a harder split. One person being the artiste with a French beret and everything and the other guy doing html and css makes sense to lots of people, and most of the ones who don't accept "well everyone else does it this way."

On the other hand, most clients see programming and markup as two right brain things, and assume you should be great at both. Plus, the whole point of PHP and ASP is to generate html, so unless you're doing pure logic, like business calculations, say compounding interest or whatever, a PHP programmer is going to need some knowledge of html I think.

**dansgalaxy** · 09-05-2007, 04:29 PM

im not saying the dont

..

if you were replying to what i said?....

**Learning Newbie** · 09-05-2007, 05:08 PM

Ya I was saying that Turbo.PGT as a Photoshop guru is going to have a much easier time getting someone - a partner - who knows xhtml and css inside and out than you will as a PHP guru.

**dansgalaxy** · 09-05-2007, 05:29 PM

ok first Thanks for calling me a PHP Guru

*blushes and smiles*

this is the thing, i need someone who is good at knocking things up in Photoshop, understand xhtml and know why its important ans stuff, and also know basic PHP principles. so we can understand each other. if you know what i mean, this is what annouys me so much!

**LadynRed** · 09-05-2007, 08:34 PM

Well, the hard truth is if you want to go to work and have a 9-5 job, then you may have to consider re-locating to get the better opportunities. It's not always the easy choice to pull up stakes and go somewhere else. I've done it 3 times in my life and each time it was an improvement for my career.

There are still cities and areas where the economy is not in the crapper.