General Discussions

**StickyNotes** · 09-11-2007, 07:09 PM

I read an interesting article about who really won the Iraq war. The article claims that the real winner is large american corporations, especially those with ties to the government. I agree with the entire article! The only winners are corporate America.

**Cheshire_cat** · 09-12-2007, 12:04 AM

YES now I see everything Bush tricked everyone into going to war so that he would make money off these companies that were paying him.

And you’re right none of the Iraq citizens won when we captured one of the most ruthless dictators of our time.

I can not wait till Hilary wins office, and then all will be well in the world. </sarcasm>

**Learning Newbie** · 09-12-2007, 02:01 AM

Uh oh. Don't get me started. I'm warning you.

Bush tricked us into a war of choice for some reason. What that reason is, is debatable. Iraq is a great strategic place to have 19 permenant bases. It's also got plenty of oil. We're not so good at nation building, but we tore everything down real good, and Halliburton is helping put the pieces back together. Dick Cheney actually collected a salary from them while still in office.

It's not that anybody is currently bribing Bush, or the Administration in general. But they did spend $100 million in donated money, and a lot of it from companies who donated heavily to PACs. And you're right, when Hillary is president, she'll do something like give whichever HMO gave her the biggest bundled donation a monopoly.

And StickyNotes is right, the Iraqi citizens certainly haven't won. There are between 600,000 and 900,000 Iraqi citizens (women, children, everyday men) who would still be alive if it wasn't for the invasion and ensuing civil war. All the people with money (doctors) have fled the country for somewhere safe, leaving the country helpless. Abu Ghraib torture camp and prison is now under new management.

Saddam was brutal and ruthless, but we tore open the gates of hell to get at him. And we aren't going after Darfur which is as bad or worse than what's going on in Iraq now, which is so much worse than it was before we invaded. We aren't doing anything abut horrific human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia, China, the worsening situation around Mogadishu and the Horn of Africa, and we turned our back on Afghanistan, where bin Laden is likely to be?

I told you not to get me started.

**coldturkey** · 09-12-2007, 12:28 PM

Go to www.stopirakwar.com and see!

**CSS4Life** · 09-12-2007, 01:08 PM

Is the spelling mistake in the domain intentional?

**Cheshire_cat** · 09-12-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldturkey

Go to www.stopirakwar.com and see!

All I see is a protest site.

**Cheshire_cat** · 09-12-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Uh oh. Don't get me started. I'm warning you.

Bush tricked us into a war of choice for some reason. What that reason is, is debatable. Iraq is a great strategic place to have 19 permenant bases. It's also got plenty of oil. We're not so good at nation building, but we tore everything down real good, and Halliburton is helping put the pieces back together. Dick Cheney actually collected a salary from them while still in office.

It's not that anybody is currently bribing Bush, or the Administration in general. But they did spend $100 million in donated money, and a lot of it from companies who donated heavily to PACs. And you're right, when Hillary is president, she'll do something like give whichever HMO gave her the biggest bundled donation a monopoly.

And StickyNotes is right, the Iraqi citizens certainly haven't won. There are between 600,000 and 900,000 Iraqi citizens (women, children, everyday men) who would still be alive if it wasn't for the invasion and ensuing civil war. All the people with money (doctors) have fled the country for somewhere safe, leaving the country helpless. Abu Ghraib torture camp and prison is now under new management.

Saddam was brutal and ruthless, but we tore open the gates of hell to get at him. And we aren't going after Darfur which is as bad or worse than what's going on in Iraq now, which is so much worse than it was before we invaded. We aren't doing anything abut horrific human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia, China, the worsening situation around Mogadishu and the Horn of Africa, and we turned our back on Afghanistan, where bin Laden is likely to be?

I told you not to get me started.

Don’t miss understand what I am saying, I am not for the war I think Bush was stupid to go over there, however I will not go so far to say that the only winners are corporate America ( I can here the violin in the background of the democratic commercial). It is that corporate America is the only winners and that all war is bad and that Bush is an evil warmongering liar, when we are sitting comfortable in our (despite what democrats will have you believe) wealthy free nation. But are you telling me that if you were a victim of total suppression and torture, and the only glimpse you light that you could see was America trying to give you a chance of freedom and that they had already captured one of the guys that was causing a lot of pain, are you telling me that no good can come out of that.

**Learning Newbie** · 09-12-2007, 02:53 PM

I'm not saying no good can come of that. And even though my heart tells me that yes, war is always wrong, I came to terms with the fact that sometimes it's necessary. Taking Hitler out is a good example, but being the only nation in history to use atomic weapons, let alone against a civilian population, is a bad example. Getting rid of Milosivec is a good example. Maybe even getting rid of Saddam was a good example, again my heart says yes, but the past 4 years say maybe not.

It's not throwing Saddam out that bothers most liberals. It's the war that's been raging since "Mission Accomplished." Which makes me wonder, did Iraq need someone like Saddam? I think the iron fist approach and killing your own civilians is always wrong, but it's one of those moral dilemmas. In the 4 years we've been fighting in Iraq, our invasion has caused 2x as many innocent civilian deaths as Saddam in his 30 years.

Honestly, you could say either one is the right answer, and back it up. Maybe it's worse to stand by and do nothing, to not try to help. But I think the Iraq war would be less hated if it's prosecutors were honest about it. We didn't go into Iraq to help the Iraqi people - we went because they had all the parts to a nuke that could reach American cities. When that turned out not to be true, it sort of morphed into other justifications. All most of us see is a series of lies about why we went over there, and why we're still there. You're honest enough to say it was a mistake, but a well intentioned one - if Bush and Cheney would admit the same thing, I think that would give a lot of people (like the families of the 4,000 dead American soldiers) some closure.

Also, the whole Al Quaeda thing. Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism, until we made it a recruiting poster. 17 or the 19 hijackers were Saudi Arabian nationals, and we let bin Laden go to get Saddam. I've got no problem with throwing out the Taliban for giving Osama safe harbor after he attacked us, but if anything, we should have invaded Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq. Same human rights violations, same un-democratic system of government, and they're the ones that actually attacked us.

**CSS4Life** · 09-12-2007, 03:14 PM

Pulling out now would leave the country in a mess. If you look at nearly all of the modern democracies, they all experienced a civil war on their way to a reasonably fair democratic system. The Iraq bloodshed is probably more widespread than these were - e.g. I don't think the French or the Americans were fighting each other in every town across the whole of the country - their war was more organised and formal, but there were still losses. I think inevitably, Iraq will eventually become a much safer place, but whether this is in 2 years, or 20 years is something I can't predict

**Learning Newbie** · 09-12-2007, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whym

Pulling out now would leave the country in a mess.

All too true. Colin Powell is right - we broke it, we bought it. But the country is already a mess. I wonder if it could possibly get any worse? I mean, as an American, I would never vacation anywhere in the Middle East. And Iraq seems to be about the worst place you could go if a long life is in your plans, outside the Palestinian Territories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whym

If you look at nearly all of the modern democracies, they all experienced a civil war on their way to a reasonably fair democratic system.

Again this is the truth. But I hope you don't mind if I add one more point. All these democracies started their own civil war to achieve their freedom and democracy - it wasn't imposed on them by invading forces. When we got tired of English rule, we stood up and said "enough!" When the French got tired of rule by the rich, they stood up and said "enough!" The people of Iraq didn't. They never got to the point where they wanted democracy enough to stand up and say "enough!"

Not saying they were happy, just saying they didn't start a revolution and then ask for our help. We just decided it was time for this sovereign country that wasn't a threat to us to have a different system of government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whym

I think inevitably, Iraq will eventually become a much safer place, but whether this is in 2 years, or 20 years is something I can't predict

I sure hope you're right! And if that does ultimately happen it wasn't all in vain.

**coldturkey** · 09-12-2007, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whym

Is the spelling mistake in the domain intentional?

Lol, yes!

www.stopirakwar.com

**dansgalaxy** · 09-13-2007, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex2mac

I say we just nuke em' all.

And this is why at most Alex will be managing MacDonalds...

I think the britain has been pulled into the Iraq war and now America and Britain now have a obligation to stay in iraq until the new goverment is in full control

If they/we pull out now America (and thanks to bush and tony) so will britain go down in history who turned a country upside down and the left them.

Dan.

**CSS4Life** · 09-13-2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex2mac

I say we just nuke em' all.

Oh great. Another unfair ignorant post by Alex. No wonder he's now got -24 TP and counting

**dansgalaxy** · 09-13-2007, 05:06 PM

kes that -43

**Michel Samuel** · 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

we aren't going after Darfur which is as bad or worse than what's going on in Iraq now, which is so much worse than it was before we invaded.

As a vet of Rwanda and a jew.
Thank you for making this statement.

And yes I was there in 1994

**PCfox** · 09-15-2007, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StickyNotes

I read an interesting article about who really won the Iraq war. The article claims that the real winner is large american corporations, especially those with ties to the government. I agree with the entire article! The only winners are corporate America.

I am 100% agree with you,Bush is stupid,the only winner is American oil corporations and weapon manufacturers.

**dansgalaxy** · 09-15-2007, 06:04 AM

Dont shoot me.

Bush ISNT stupid. he just has no people skills or ability to speak publicly.
and/or is a very good actor...

seriously he is a quite inteligent and seems to have a good sense of humor.. i just dont this he should be running a superpower

**Michel Samuel** · 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansgalaxy

Dont shoot me.

Bush ISNT stupid. he just has no people skills or ability to speak publicly.
and/or is a very good actor...

seriously he is a quite inteligent and seems to have a good sense of humor.. i just dont this he should be running a superpower

Let me say this..
My heart is for the victims of the war and their loved ones.
(All involved.. civilians, military, etc regardless of what side they are on.)

Having said that...
Not my president. Not my country. Not my war. Not my coulture. Not my maternal language.
Therefore this predominately anglo-conflict isn't my concern.

I will say Bush is an idiot.

And since all democratic gouvernments are a representation of its people...
(Can't be a world leader if you can NOT speak to the majority of your nation)

I think it's a sad commentary on the overall intelligence of the average baby boomer and their ADHD Sponge Bob children.
Say whatever you want on TV and shout out some slogans with some guy claiming he is a expert and telling you it's all true.
And the average boomers and their kids march off to support any dumb idea you want.

This war has had lots of opportunists and lots of scum are profiting. But the real reason Bush declared war on Sadam is because his daddy went to war with Sadam. He wanted follow in his father's footsteps and rather than argue their leader and cheif, they protected their behinds and provided him with all kinds of justifications.

**dansgalaxy** · 09-15-2007, 06:59 AM

Ok im not american... im British

and i honestly dont think he is a idiot.. he just seems like it when you actually look into him he is fairly inteligent. hes just act stupid XD

Lol

IF you want to read about stupid americans look at my blog entry Xd http://dansgalaxy.co.uk/blog/2007/09...can-sterotype/

(shameless plug)

Dan

**Michel Samuel** · 09-15-2007, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansgalaxy

Ok im not american... im British

and i honestly dont think he is a idiot.. he just seems like it when you actually look into him he is fairly inteligent. hes just act stupid XD

Lol

IF you want to read about stupid americans look at my blog entry Xd http://dansgalaxy.co.uk/blog/2007/09...can-sterotype/

(shameless plug)

Dan

I am about to be the ugly frog.
But I once lived for 6 months in Britan and had a contract with the BBC.

It was terriable that I, a francophone, had to stop my work and correct the english grammar and spelling of many english men.

From my position and I am certain you will find similar from many europeans and Canadiens... We do not see a substantial difference between the British and Americans.