General Discussions

**CSS4Life** · 10-03-2007, 04:55 PM

Are you? I'm definitely not. I know there are plenty of people (stereotyping here) in the USA who are proud of capitalism, although they aren't necessarily represented here. I know Newbie is very anti-capitalism, as am I, but is anyone here proud of capitalism? If so, why?

**colbyt** · 10-03-2007, 07:03 PM

Capitalism is what made this country what it is. I happen to believe very stongly in the concept. Unbribled greed is a another concept.

Unfortunately, I have also come to believe that like any system without checks and balances it can become corrupt. Once upon a time there were the robber barrons of the 19th century. Now they have all moved to wall street.

Given a choice between Socialism or capitalism, I would choose the latter.

I could ramble on but will stop here for now.

**coolkbk585** · 10-03-2007, 08:42 PM

I don't know if I completely approve of capitalism, but with that against all other available options I would choose it, most definitely.

I don't really know what else to say

**Aadriyah** · 10-03-2007, 09:48 PM

Capitalism- a way of getting much more profit than usual... sad to say but that's the truth.

**ForrestCroce** · 10-03-2007, 10:57 PM

If you can separate capitalism from corporatism I think it's a good thing. Ultimately the idea is that through competition we should be able to raise everybody's standard of living.

**serandfae** · 10-04-2007, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

If you can separate capitalism from corporatism I think it's a good thing. Ultimately the idea is that through competition we should be able to raise everybody's standard of living.

What he said. Nicely put. While I do believe in socialized medicine (healthcare, IMHO, is a public good, and American medicine is decades behind most European countries) the line must be firmly drawn as to what government should get into. "Trickle down" economics sure hasn't worked for the working class, but unions haven't either for about the same amount of time. And yet, because of competition the US is still the world's only economic superpower. Yes, only.

**CSS4Life** · 10-04-2007, 04:54 AM

Well, by asking this question, you could probably tell I was anti-capitalism.

While the free market is a fairly good idea in principle, in reality, it only allows huge corporations to gain monopolies eventually over the economy.

Example: Microsoft has it's operating system on about 90% of all computers, giving it a huge advantage over competitors as it has massive funding behind it.

Another example: Tesco (biggest supermarket in the UK) now gets about £1 in every £8 we spend, but it has huge power over the British farmers, forcing prices down and getting every larger profit margins. It has been known to "bribe" councils into giving them planning permission, by paying for local public services like sports centres. You should also note that in the majority of cases, when a supermarket moves into a town, particularly a small one, the independent small traders shut up shop.

A massive problem I see with American capitalism though is the vast numbers of people that are losing but no-one seems to care about. There are millions, if not tens of millions, of people in the US without health care and living in literal poverty. A programme I watched on TV called "The Trap: What happened to our dream of freedom?" highlighted that between 1970 and the mid 90s in the US, the top 1% saw their incomes explode upwards, the middle 20% saw their incomes go from around $31,000 ish to $33,000 (forgetting inflation I think), but the bottom 20% saw their income fall from about $9,000 to $7,000ish. That speaks for itself.

The programme also highlighted the terrible corruption that took place during that time - how people in politics were similarly to Tesco, "bribed" by large corporations, by getting them to pay for election costs.

Under capitalism, social mobility often collapses as it is doing now in the UK - rich families buy houses near the good schools, house prices rise, the poor move out to places where schooling is worse and therefore are less likely to succeed as much in life - this eventually becomes a cycle where the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor.

As well as this, it catalyzed the idea that human beings are only self-seeking little information processors. To see what I mean, I highly recommend you watch this Google video (it's long but it's worth it):

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...82478877371384

**Learning Newbie** · 10-04-2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whym

While the free market is a fairly good idea in principle, in reality, it only allows huge corporations to gain monopolies eventually over the economy.

Even if the "waron terrer" is a bumper sticker, the war on words is going as well as the war on the environment. Free trade is anything but free. It runs on the backs of wage slaves. ("Wage slave: A wage earner whose livelihood is completely dependent on the wages earned.") Too many people all over the "rich world" live paycheck to paycheck. The laws are written by lobbiests for their clients.

PS - The iPod is as much a monopoly as Windows, both squashing the competition that's supposed to make things better under an iron fist.

**delighted** · 10-04-2007, 01:12 PM

**swiftmed** · 10-04-2007, 06:56 PM

i strongly beleive in capitalism, and support it fully!

**CSS4Life** · 10-04-2007, 07:07 PM

Delighted, surely that's got to be a joke!

And Newbie, I know about financial hardship. We own a large house which amazingly doesn't have any loans against it and has been in the family for 2 generations now, but we basically live between paychecks and the current farming crisis over foot and mouth and blue tongue disease has hit us bad (2 farmers owe my Dad a lot of money and things aren't looking good).

I'd also agree with your iPod thing.

**joder** · 10-04-2007, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiftmed

i strongly beleive in capitalism, and support it fully!

Just using the term "capitalism" is vague. It has entirely different meanings to different people and groups. There are many different types of capitalism. For instance laissez-faire, state, industrial, etc.

**ADAM Web Design** · 10-05-2007, 12:02 AM

I'm a capitalist pig and **** proud of it. Let market forces as a collective dictate things. Governments can't handle the responsibility, and eventually Darwinian market forces will have to take effect and weed out the weak.

**ltsmash** · 10-05-2007, 12:23 AM

The issue of your preference for financial liberties is entirely decided by how you were brought up and how you deal with problems.

**ADAM Web Design** · 10-05-2007, 12:30 AM

I find that a rather interesting take, Lt. Smash (GREAT nick, by the way! Yvan Eht Nioj!)

I'm just curious, though: how would my being brought up by people who come from when the Anglos met the Rubbermaid containers affect my largely market-driven, libertarian viewpoint?

(Note: I have no preconceived notions about your answer or theory...I'm legitimately curious.)

**DaveMo~** · 10-05-2007, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadriyah

Capitalism- a way of getting much more profit than usual... sad to say but that's the truth.

I doubt seriously if you'll find that definition anywhere but in your opinion.

Just some thought, but when ambiguous or general questions are asked, how can one make a logical statement or come to a logical conclusion without agreed upon definitions?

Capitalism:

Capitalism generally refers to an economic system in which the means of production are all or mostly privately owned and operated for profit, and in which investments, distribution, income, production and pricing of goods and services are determined through the operation of a market economy. More at Wikipedia
Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned. Under capitalism the state is separated from economics (production and trade), just like the state is separated from religion. Capitalism is the system of of laissez faire. It is the system of political freedom. More at Capitalism.org
Capitalism, economic system in which private individuals and business firms carry on the production and exchange of goods and services through a complex network of prices and markets. Although rooted in antiquity, capitalism is primarily European in its origins; it evolved through a number of stages, reaching its zenith in the 19th century. From Europe, and especially from England, capitalism spread throughout the world, largely unchallenged as the dominant economic and social system until World War I (1914-1918) ushered in modern communism (or Marxism) as a vigorous and hostile competing system. More at MSN Encarta
And it goes on....

This is just a long post to say, why don't people define what they mean so others can give a better answer to their questions? So which one is everyone talking about? Or what is the definition for the question?

Are you proud of eating giblets? I don't know. Which parts are considered giblets?

I'm a proud participant in the barter system, defined by me as my payment for services rendered or products that I have can be made with more than just currency and I will trade with what I have to get something that I might want/need. I have this large chicken wing and you have that fine pear...trade you!

Dave

**serandfae** · 10-05-2007, 01:34 AM

For those of you who profess to be anti-capitalism, specifically what is it you support as the alternative, and why?

**vangogh** · 10-05-2007, 02:24 AM

Dave any of the three definitions you listed works for me.

Quote:

Under capitalism the state is separated from economics

I think the problems people believe are caused by capitalism are actually caused because the above part of definition 2 doesn't really exist. The state is definitely not separated from economics.

I can understand why it's not separated and I'm not sure 100% laissez faire would entirely work. I think Adam Smith himself could never think of a reason why under a capitalist system anyone would build roads.

But I think most of the problems people associate with capitalism have less to do with what capitalism is and more to do with how we've regulated it. One regulation leads to another and to another and to another until the whole thing becomes a tangled mess.

I'm not saying there should be 0 regulation. I think there should be some, but as soon as you start regulating you have to accept you're no longer operating completely under a capitalist system.

I too would like to ask the same question Tim asked above me. For those who don't care for capitalism what alternative do you want in its place?

Capitalism isn't perfect, but from what I can see it's still the best system we have at the moment. Until someone comes up with something better then yes I'm proud of capitalism. It's much better than what was before.

**CSS4Life** · 10-05-2007, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serandfae

For those of you who profess to be anti-capitalism, specifically what is it you support as the alternative, and why?

From my perspective as a centre-left guy, I think capitalism and monoplies should be very carefully managed and certain services and utilities should be nationalized.

For example, the health system in the US - here in the UK, we've thankfully got a National Health System (NHS) which is expensive but at least the poor and disadvantaged are cared for. Similarly with utilities/services such as telehpone communications (British Telecom was nationalized before the privatization at the start of the 90s) and the water and power utilities too. I'd admit that capitalism can potentially be good for competition and certain areas should be left privatized, but they also need to be carefully regulated.

That's my take on things - I'm sure John has another take on it too.

**NullPointer** · 10-05-2007, 01:04 PM

Given the alternatives, I support capitalism. I'm not sure any economic system in use is truely capitalist though.

Communism is a great idea in theory, its just that no one implemented the way it was intended.