General Discussions

**Learning Newbie** · 10-19-2007, 01:01 PM

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-979...?tag=nefd.only

So far this is seen as a reaction to Bush's meeting with the Dali Lama. I'll go ahead and say it. Bush did the right thing. I don't want this to become a thread about GWB, but I do need to give the man credit when it's due.

I hope we can talk about The Great Firewall of China, censorship, and the nature and spirit of the internet itself. What are your thoughts?

**CSS4Life** · 10-19-2007, 01:28 PM

This is obviously not good news. I had no idea that China was so restrictive about all of this! My URL is even blocked in the Great Firewall of China thing, which makes me think they've probably just blocked any UK web site.

**angele803** · 10-19-2007, 01:58 PM

Wow....I just realized that I am really naive. I had no idea China even censored web sites...or chose what people were allowed to view on their own computers.
I am even more thankful to live in the US than I was 10 minutes ago.

**Learning Newbie** · 10-19-2007, 02:23 PM

It's true, Steph. China jails people for blogging about democracy. They spy on their citizens in a way that Bus-, er, in a way that's truly daunting. Maybe two years ago Google took a lot of flack for agreeing to censor their Chinese search engine, and they only buckled because the party wouldn't have let them operate in China otherwise. Rupert Murdoch has been producing television propaganda for the Communist Party to be allowed to run his networks there. Yahoo, Cisco, Sun, Microsoft, and others have helped build the technology that allows this amazing level of censorship.

My site is blocked, too. I'm not surprised tho, I used to run an ASP.NET proxy that only worked for people in China but not at a government IP address. Proxy servers are the main weapon against censorship, but mine got blocked after a couple weeks.

**LadynRed** · 10-19-2007, 03:02 PM

People, China is still a COMMUNIST REGIME !! Communism DOES NOT WORK.... unless you exert complete control over your country's access to the REST of the world. The only way you can keep your people down and under your thumb is to isolate them - and that is exactly what China's gov't is trying to do.

China wants to trade with the rest of the world, they want our MONEY.. but not for the benefit of the majority of it's citizenry. Anyone who's had any history lessons knows that there is an ELITE sector -- those who have money, power, nice houses, all the amenities -- and then there's everyone else.

This comes as no surprise at all - it was only a matter of time. Eventually, communism will fail in China too - -you just can't keep so many MILLIONS of people stuck 30-50 years (or more) behind the rest of the world, especially with today's technology.

**Learning Newbie** · 10-19-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadynRed

This comes as no surprise at all - it was only a matter of time. Eventually, communism will fail in China too - -you just can't keep so many MILLIONS of people stuck 30-50 years (or more) behind the rest of the world, especially with today's technology.

I agree with just about everything written here, but I take two exceptions

I actually do think this comes as a surprise, although not a huge one. Google already censored themselves, so it's a little strange that they seem to have been cut off altogether?
Communism is an economic system, not a government system. China's government is an autocracy, the rule by a single party. Their economy is a state run mix of capitalism and weirdness. Communism hasn't been practiced for thousands of years, and China and the Soviet Union were slander to the ideal of community based economy. I'd say the tight control over their people is because they're a dictatorship, and not because they call their economy "communist."

Otherwise, though, LNR is right as usual or always.

**fastreplies** · 10-19-2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadynRed

you just can't keep so many MILLIONS of people stuck 30-50 years (or more) behind the rest of the world, especially with today's technology.

You’ll be surprised what bullets and nooses can do.

42 millions of Russians killed by Stalin is good example of how effective fear
can be in society controlled by dictatorship.

Internet is the window to the World and keeping that window closes the only
way Chinese Government can control their people.

fastreplies

**tripy** · 10-19-2007, 05:34 PM

The ONU is primarily a diplomatic task force. China is big enough to not need the occident.
ONU have no power to enforce anything there.

I'm pretty surprised that so many peoples did not knew this situation.
I though it was pretty much world known.
True, My mom acted in Amnesty International to try to protect chineses dissidents at the time of Tian An Men massacre, in 1989.

I know that due to my family name, I could not go in China, even if I would.

Just for you people to know:

Quote:

China Daily, the country's main English-language newspaper, said the change ''proves the country's respect for the dignity of all human beings, even those who committed serious offenses.'' It did not mention the volume of executions this year, estimated at 5,000 to 10,000 by people who study the subject.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C1A9679C8B63

And the family of the peoples who are executed must pay for the bullet used to shot them down...

If you want to inform you further, look there.

Human right watch
http://www.hrw.org/

Amnesty International
http://www.amnesty.org/

**Learning Newbie** · 10-19-2007, 06:05 PM

Respect goes to tripy, who deserves +rep but I need to spread some around before I can accomplish that.

**CSS4Life** · 10-19-2007, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingdomathand

how can one help?

There isn't much that can be done really. It's up to the Chinese people themselves to remove their current government and change things

**tripy** · 07:15 PM

Quote:

There isn't much that can be done really.

I'm sorry Dan, but I must disagree here.
And strongly...

Amnesty for example is working actively to help Chines peoples to get more freedom.
It's a long process, and there won't be much move from the inside.

I take you didn't went to the army Dan.
No offense, but I did.
I live in a country where every valid man must do 300 days in the army, spread in weeks between 18 and 35 years. We have a milicia army here, in Switzerland.

Seriously, you won't believe if you had not lived it, how a full hierarchy of peoples shouting at you the same insanity might succeed in making even brilliant mind trust them and believe in it.
I've seen real rebels, students, that where all reggae and ganja style running at 5 in the morning around the caserns shouting war songs and waving flags.
I didn't recognized them.

Me, I succeeded in ending in the kitchens, but not without a detour in the cells from time to time for "subversion".
He, what do you know, I'm thinking like an anarchist. I don't stand being in a hierarchical group.

Now, imagine that the communist party have the direction of the country for more than 50 years.
Many of the chineses peoples have never know anything else than it.
Most of them don't know how it is outside of their country.
The one that are allowed to get outside of china are elite, sorted on the finest filters (not sure about how to say it in English), and they have a lot of string that prevent them from running (family mainly).

The whole CP (Communitst Party) have built their control upon police and army.
Any dissident is dragged in "rehabilitation center", and often even it's family don't know about it.
Many of them never to be seen again...

Organizations like Amnesty have local peoples that risk literally their lives, spying on authority, and communicating with the outside world with specific networks like the one used in the cold war to inform the world about what happens there.

And today, with the next Olympics games in Beijing, you sure have a serious option to make your voice weight.
There even was a manifestation in front of the CIO committee this week
http://google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.humanrights-geneva.info%2Farticle.php3%3Fid_article%3D2370&lan gpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

Seriously peoples, if you think you cannot do anything, then you haven't grasped why a democracy is precious, and why it may need blood to be defended.
Democracy is not only deciding for you, it's too helping peoples to be able to decide for themselves.
At least, it's my strong belief that we should not let things the way they are.
I don't say you must do something, but YOU SURELY MUST NOT SAY YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING

Freedom to speech comes with a terrible price...
You are free to say what you may want, but the peoples out there that don't want to hear it can hit you real hard. If you want to be able to speak, you must be conscious that you may have to face a sever opposition.

**CSS4Life** · 10-19-2007, 07:27 PM

OK maybe my statement was a little stupid, but I still feel it's up to the 1 billion Chinese to stand up to their government and make the choice themselves. We should do what we can to help, but ultimately, it's up to them to choose democracy rather than dictatorship.

**Learning Newbie** · 10-19-2007, 07:51 PM

I think Whym does have a point. Patterns of government aren't something that should be imposed from the outside.

On the other hand, Amnesty International is the most successful non-profit charity in the world, and it's true they've been making slow progress.

And this is absolutely a powerful image and step forward

**tripy** · 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whym

OK maybe my statement was a little stupid, but I still feel it's up to the 1 billion Chinese to stand up to their government and make the choice themselves. We should do what we can to help, but ultimately, it's up to them to choose democracy rather than dictatorship.

No, it's not stupid.
It's just that you apply your logic, where you have lived freely to a place and peoples that could not do that for the last 50 years.

I truly believe that many chinese are happy with the way their coutnry works.
The economy gets better and better, if you behave well, you might have a part of the cake yourself.
More and more occidental company are coming in China, there is a lot of work available for anyone wanting one (leading to a real slavery situation, but that's something else), and there is a real brainwashing bashing capitalistic values and praising the "people revolution" going for years.

In that situation, it makes really hard to individual to go against it, as it will make them go against most of the population.
Almost every strike have started from universities, and the CP did tighten it's surveillance on them since Tian an Men.

In the end, the "group effect" as I name it ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink ) works for the CP, making the majority of the people opposed to the change.

True, we cannot and must not impose them anything on the political level (and the emphasis is not a coincidence), but we can pressure economically the directing members of the CP to force them to give more freedom of choice to the people.
That's the way to follow in my opinion.
And groups like Amnesty works toward this goal by the hand of each of their members.
They provide you letters, addresses and means to put pressure on your single level (if you want to, nothing forced) on a declared "target".

**fastreplies** · 09:22 PM

Changes in China, South Korea, Cuba will sooner or later take place but it will be costly and maybe even bloody process.

No one could imagine 20 years ago that USSR will cease to exist accept for few courageous men such as Anatoly Sharansky, Andrei Sakharov among others who risk their lives fighting for social changes in Russia.

As long people keep fighting for their rights, there always will be hope followed by changes.

fastreplies

**serandfae** · 10-19-2007, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Communism is an economic system, not a government system.

The term communism, which in it's current usage is a socioeconomic system, will never be rescued from its connection with the abuses of the dictatorship of the proletariat. And Marx simply did not take into consideration that any government given absolute power will not turn lose of it; the state will never wither away. BTW did you catch that Marxism, as well, is a socioeconomic concept? What you've been calling communism really isn't. No disrespect here; I like some of your ideas, but those of us who grew up during the height of the Cold War will always associate that term with these disturbing remaining relics thereof.

**joder** · 10-20-2007, 12:15 PM

Google and others should have done the right thing in the first placed and not voluntarily blocked sites.

China is changing their government is fearful. Things WILL change but it takes time.

**LadynRed** · 10-20-2007, 01:26 PM

Quote:

but those of us who grew up during the height of the Cold War will always associate that term with these disturbing remaining relics thereof.

Exactly right, Tim. When I was in elementary school in the early 60's, I well remember those 'duck and cover' air raid drills.. as a kid of 5-7, even though I didn't understand why, it scared me nonetheless. As Tim said, the Karl Marx "vision" of communism isn't what evolved.

I used to work with a man who was involved in the Tianamin Square mess, he and his wife were here in the US under a special visa and special protection. He's a brilliant engineer, as is his wife, but the things he told of China could make your hair stand on end ! The people have to force the change - generations may have grown up not knowing any other way.. but they DO know that the rest of the world enjoys freedoms that they are denied - that they live in constant fear.

**ForrestCroce** · 10-20-2007, 05:30 PM

Language is evolving. Shakespeare is incomprehensible to most of our high schoolers, but wasn't speaking in code in his own time. Look at how a racial epithet became everyday slang in rap music. How a word that used to mean a bundle of sticks means someone from San Francisco's Castro District. Album went from a vinyl disc to a collection of songs that are released at the same time.

If you ask ten people in line at the grocery store what communism is, nine of them will tell you the Soviet Union and China and Cuba. That might be technically wrong according to a particular dictionary, but it's what people overwhelmingly mean and understand when the word comes up. I understand that you're talking about a different concept, but the word communism has come to mean the group of countries that have called themselves that within our lifetimes.

**fastreplies** · 10-20-2007, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

If you ask ten people in line at the grocery store what communism is, nine of them will tell you the Soviet Union and China and Cuba. That might be technically wrong according to a particular dictionary, but it's what people overwhelmingly mean and understand when the word comes up.

That is because communism became synonymous with dictatorship and not
with K.M. concept of communal society

fastreplies