General Discussions

**fitnfree** · 11-12-2007, 08:58 AM

If so, please unite with me! I am under legal attack for posting a link to my local police department's web site on my BUSINESS (web design) site (which yes, I know, is badly in need of a re-design..

). An excellent recap/summary is posted here:
http://badgerblogger.com/?p=6120

And do note, this is not about ME, this is about freedom of speech. So if you value your free speech and your rights to link to any site you wish to on the Internet, stick a link to the Sheboygan Police Department somewhere, would you please? This has taken hold and gotten national coverage. Bloggers around my state and now the country are picking up on this and I've retained a high-profile attorney to fight this injustice. (that's why I've been gone for a bit...been a little overwhelmed and wild for me lately).

So, I ask my fellow webmasters, whom I felt would be equally as appalled at this abuse of power, to stick up for our rights to "link". One community member has aptly coined this (unofficially) "WEBGATE", which is how I am now referring to it.

Read the "Cease and Desist letter that was sent to me by our City Attorney here: http://crgnetwork.com/media/Sheboyga...and_desist.htm

If you'd like a fun banner, check these out:
http://sheboyganshenanigans.com/?p=54
http://sheboyganshenanigans.com/?p=61
Sheboygan PD Website link is http://www.sheboyganpolice.com

And please, this isn't a "left or right", "conservative vs. liberal" issue, so please let us not start that damaging fight. This is about all of us and our 1st Amendment rights.

Godspeed my friends. Something tells me I can count on you all around here.

**serandfae** · 11-12-2007, 11:19 AM

Good luck with that. There's a story I can share with you to illustrate that you can fight City Hall and win. Back in the 70's my dad-in-law had a biker bar that the mayor didn't like having in the city limits, so he got the police department to harass his family. Given that this site is family friendly I won't relate what all they did. The ACLU got involved, that mayor went away and the only ones left in that police department were the ones that helped my dad-in-law. So it can be done and I wish you luck again in your fight.

**fitnfree** · 11-12-2007, 11:27 AM

Thank you for sharing that experience serandfae! Very inspiring and I can use all of that I can get right now!

Happy to hear your side prevailed. Let's make mincement of that saying, "You can't fight city hall", huh!?

**ADAM Web Design** · 11-12-2007, 11:30 AM

As incredibly stupid as this sounds, I'm actually going to have to take the side of the cops on this one. I wouldn't turn down a free link, and it made sense for you to link to them as a resource; however, some site owners don't want their sites linked to for various reasons (private site, government regulations stating that they can only receive links from other government sites, other industry regulations stating as such). It does exist.

if I were you, I'd just pull the link down and let it go. I don't think it's got anything to do with free speech or politics, either. There may well be a mandate in place forbidding them from accepting inbound links that they don't know about. It's bureaucracy, sure, but there is a certain twisted logic (i.e. they don't want to be associated with just anyone, and an inbound link may serve to establish a low-class connection in user minds.)

In other words, you're not in any way wrong...but neither are they.

**fitnfree** · 11-12-2007, 11:34 AM

I understand your link of thinking, Adam, but lawyers across the country have contacted me asking to represent me. It's not the link that is in question -- there is no local policy against it, I checked and knew this when I placed it -- it's the abuse of power done by a power-hungry mayor who infringed on the first amendment rights of a citizen who has done nothing wrong. That's the heart of this matter. The link was the kicking off point of a much, MUCH larger issue.

**serandfae** · 11-12-2007, 11:38 AM

If I may ask, why did you link to the Shebooboo PD anyway?

**ADAM Web Design** · 11-12-2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fitnfree

I understand your link of thinking, Adam, but lawyers across the country have contacted me asking to represent me.

I'm not saying this to talk down to you or anything like that; I'm just making an observation. Lawyers are right up there with SEOs as far as "wannabeism" is concerned, and they'd jump at any chance to get a name for themselves.

"Even if I LOSE, I'll be famous!" -- Lionel Hutz

**serandfae** · 11-12-2007, 12:06 PM

Speaking of fame, I can't believe how many relevant hits I got just typing in sheboygan wi police link.....

Looks like you have a lot of small town mayors up there of late up to shenanigans. You have a rather large lake to the east of you, perhaps you offer them the obvious invite?

**fastreplies** · 12:21 PM

Adam, I must to disagree with you on that one.

What if link to Police Dept. is a Public Service informing public where and how they can contact Police or Hospital or any other essential services run by the City Hall or Government in cases of disaster for example to learn more about areas effected, blocked roads, up to date bulletin etc.

Surely they won’t be able to do that by phone given that thousands of people are trying to do the same at the same time and because the INTERNET was created specifically for this kind of situations for people to find up to the minute information then IMO link to Police or FEMA or any other Emergency service may eventually help someone in the moment of crisis

fastreplies

**stOx** · 11-12-2007, 12:29 PM

I can't see what grounds they have for demanding a link to a publicly accessible page be removed.
if they don't want something linked to they have to remove it from the Internet.

**Learning Newbie** · 11-12-2007, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

As incredibly stupid as this sounds, I'm actually going to have to take the side of the cops on this one. I wouldn't turn down a free link, and it made sense for you to link to them as a resource; however, some site owners don't want their sites linked to for various reasons (private site, government regulations stating that they can only receive links from other government sites, other industry regulations stating as such). It does exist.

I don't think that's legally possible. The police are a public agency, and thus subject to being talked about by the public. They're fair game. Restrictions like you mention may well exist for who the police are allowed to link to from their site, but another site linking to them is beyond the reach of the long arm of the law.

A link is essentially providing their address on the web. Can anyone make a good argument why I should not be allowed to say their URL? To write it in an email? This isn't secret knowledge, like when Bush is going to unleash Israel on Iran, so there's no prior restraint like in the Pentagon Papers during Viet Nam. There's no secrecy to be maintained. And in a land where anybody can link to anybody else, being on the receiving end of publicity doesn't establish any relationship.

In short, the police have no ground to ask (let alone demand) Jenni to take down her link. I'll be linking to the same police department in solidarity with her, even though we disagree greatly on politics. And while I would say this is an example of the police state fuhrer Bush is creating, a citizen's right to discuss their local police department is legitimate and inalienable.

Jenni I have a friend who's an honest lawyer, and if you have any questions I could pass along to have answered for you, just post them here or shoot a PM.

**ADAM Web Design** · 11-12-2007, 03:48 PM

Hey, don't get me wrong...I think it's beyond idiotic that any organization should ask another organization to remove a site link.

But I've not only seen it done, I've had it happen to me (mostly for spambaits, but others as well). Some people just don't want to be associated with other people. And in the case of government agencies, there's a lot of bureaucracy and red tape and middle managers making $40,000 a year with a team of 3 under them that think they're high and mighty that come up with these rules.

Like I said, if someone's stupid enough to ask for their link to be removed, just pull it off, make a mental note that the site in question is run by a bunch of idiots, and be done with it.

**Learning Newbie** · 11-12-2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

But I've not only seen it done, I've had it happen to me (mostly for spambaits, but others as well).

But that was probably delivered along with a threat to sue you for libel if you didn't take it down? That's another matter entirely. Not that you'd have to worry, because truth is the defense against libel and slander. But free speech doesn't protect me going to the police and saying "Adam killed my wife and he's going to kill again" if it's not true. Your spam baits could be harmful to a spammer's bottom line, so of course they'd try and get you to take it down. Maybe without a link they have a level of plausible deniability? He was talking about the other Oxbury Group, that dastardly duo out of Detroit. Still I bet people send take down letters that aren't worth the paper they're printed on all the time.

**ADAM Web Design** · 11-12-2007, 05:21 PM

That's why I said mostly my spambaits.

Seriously, I thought of one particular example that occurred about 6 weeks ago. The client is updating their Resources section (and no, unlike most people out there, it's an actual resources section, not a whole bunch of link exchange SEO crap.) They contacted one person from a similar agency, and asked them if the wording of the description of the link was okay. The other agency told them not to put the link up at all because "we won't get any potential clients from it, so we don't want to waste the bandwidth." Now obviously someone hasn't told the other agency that bandwidth is almost the Internet equivalent to Kool-Aid at just pennies a glass now, but that's still their right to make the statement.

**DaveMo~** · 11-12-2007, 06:57 PM

I wonder what Freedom of Speech has to do with links? Maybe this freedom is trying to be made all encompassing of everything.

For various reasons, I've seen external links asked to be removed. Is it the right of the owner of a site to NOT have a link on another's site if they so wish?

So where does the freedom of speech infringe upon another's freedom to do with their site as they please?

Dave

**Learning Newbie** · 11-12-2007, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMo~

Is it the right of the owner of a site to NOT have a link on another's site if they so wish?

So where does the freedom of speech infringe upon another's freedom to do with their site as they please?

I do, strongly, believe in the right to privacy. But I think a public facing web site of a public institution that's paid for with public tax money, is something privacy doesn't apply to, personally.