General Discussions

**davet** · 12-17-2007, 01:41 AM

is it me or does it seem like everyone wants a website for free or just pennies now-a-days? The offers I see posted on forums like this and craigslist are just ridiculous. "Web designers needed for $10/hour" or people posting projects with $0 budget. I could get a job at the local fast food place and make $10/hour.

I've found it very hard to obtain customers when i tell them the average costs of a website is $2,500.

What's the average price you charge your customers for a 5-7 page site?

Is this a basic html site or do you use a CMS like Joomla or Drupal?

Do you charge more or less for CMS based sites?

**fastreplies** · 12-17-2007, 02:21 AM

I’m not surprised at all. 8 yeas ago our company charger $10 for 5MB of space and $500 for 1 page and today when some hosts will offer you 20 domains hosting for $3 and free web design, $10 doesn’t sound like a bad deal.

Hey some guy in India has been doing this job for $5 per day

fastreplies

**davet** · 02:35 AM

it's very depressing. With the cost of living going up and the price a hosting and a typical site design plummeting i just wonder if i'm in the wrong business.

Even IT consulting is getting dirt cheap. I was talking to a friend the other day and their office gets free PC service. They lease a copier from a company who provides free toner and free computer repair help for all 8 computers. They pay $175/month for the copier and she says they call those guys almost daily with computer problems. A typical IT service contract for 8 computers should cost $400/month alone.

i just wonder how anyone makes a living anymore offering these low ball prices. I have a feeling eventually these types of businesses won't be in business in the future due to them not making a profit. How can they even survive when they're really not bringing in much revenue for the time they devote to customers? There's only so much time in day to devote to customers and those hours need to be compensated for.

I have a feeling many of these low ball prices are being offered by kids & newbies with no real experience. They're basically just trying to create a portfolio and a customer base. Eventually they'll learn their time and expertise is of much more value and will raise their prices.

**fastreplies** · 12-17-2007, 03:02 AM

You're right.
No real company will be able to offer hosting below cost but if you run you "business" from your parents basement and you don't have to pay expences, then $1 /mo. for hosting and "nothing better to do anyway" free web design will be just a bonus to keep some moron senseless life going.

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**ADAM Web Design** · 12-17-2007, 11:31 AM

To be totally honest, this used to bug me but it doesn't anymore. The reason is simple:

----- Me

----- Dirtbag lowball "IT specialists/web designers".

If you can offer something no one else can and offer it better than they can, then there's a market for it at any amount you can count. I don't even deal with idiots who shop around for price anymore; if I hear "what's your best price on a...?" I tell them, "Double what I'd normally charge for ..."

"Why?"
"Because you're trying to get me to do things on the cheap, and double covers all of the complaining and whining you're sure to do when you don't get what you want. I want this to be worth my time."
"What about my time?"
"It means about as much to me as mine does to you."

The conversation has never gone further.

Point is: there are people out there who will pay fairly for a job well done, be loyal and nice, and respect and appreciate you. There are those who want everything as cheaply as possible (it's one of the reasons I don't bid on jobs from forums.) Find the former, laugh at the latter, and you'll be a lot happier.

**milomedia** · 12-17-2007, 11:59 AM

The real issue here is that these people get what they pay for. I've accumulated quite a few clients who opted for some offshore $10 an hour deal, got screwed, and then needed to come crying back. If you truly do good work, don't worry about a thing. Do good work and people will hire you. Although, prices have dropped, that's a fact. Our jobs have also become much easier. The availability of software both commercial and open source, as well as the availability of forums like this have made web design a pretty easy job....

**joder** · 12-17-2007, 12:20 PM

There are many places in the world where 10/hr. is a lot of money. There are places where 1/hr. is a lot of money. That's the price of globalization. When capitalism is brought to the developing world, goods and services are produced at their economic level - not those of the U.S. You will see more and more web sites being built off-shore as time goes on. One day their standard of living will increase and there will be more competition.

**davet** · 12:30 PM

yeah I had a potential customer who's other option was to hire and fly over someone from India. He kept asking me what I was doing to gain him as a customer. I think he was blinded by the fact I was in his office 2-3 hours free of charge. He just kept wanted more and more... trying to suck the "FREE"-ness out of me. Every time I told him my rates we would just keep saying he could find it much cheaper elsewhere. He basically wanted me to do work on his current site for free (or close to it) but 'promised' me all sorts of new projects from his clients. I just kept telling him I need to be compensated for my time and expertise... I speak English very well for petes sakes

The language barrier he would experience with the India hire was another good selling point.. well so I thought.

I even tried making a package deal for sites he would need created... Like for $75/month which include hosting, design & maintenance with a $199 up front fee. There was a 2 year minimum contract on this package. I haven't heard from him since. I've seen these types of customers before. Promises, promises, promises... just to get some freebies.

Oh and ADAM yeah I love those "I just need a simple website. We don't have any money" customers!

I know for a fact I am an expert at what I do & I feel I should be compensated for my time. I try to explain to these customers that getting a simple site isn't going to cut it now-a-days and that I don't do those types of sites. There's SEO to think about, the site launch, extended support for the site after the launch & I do all my sites in Joomla so there's the management capability they're getting that these cheaper sites wouldn't have... and if they are a member-based site that is a whole different story which they are completely unaware of.

I guess I just gotta keep looking for the legit customers who want to establish a website the right way and don’t have a problem paying for quality work.

I guess it's just like this in any market... I could get a pair of pants at the Banana Republic ($90) or I can get a much cheaper pair at Walmart ($9). Both are pants

**milomedia** · 12-17-2007, 12:29 PM

But the simple fact applies... If you're in the US and you have your work done offshore, you have absolutely no legal recourse should the person decide to pull a fast one on you. I'm a firm believer in shopping local whether you're buying carrots from the local farmers' market or a website from the local web guy. In my experience, everyone I know who has bought a cheaply done offshore website has replaced it with a more expensive locally built site, thereby double paying for a product they should have just bought at home to begin with. I sincerely look forward to a day where wages and standards of living are equal across the globe, but until then, you're better off shopping local...

**ADAM Web Design** · 12-17-2007, 12:47 PM

I actually had something even dumber happen to me last year, Dave (but on a similar vein). This just goes to show how cheap and stupid some people are.

A web design company out of Windsor, Ontario who shall remain nameless (mostly because I've completely forgotten who they are) called me up at 8:00 AM EST on a Saturday morning.

"Hi there, we've lost our full-time designer and we're looking for someone to help out on a temporary basis."
"Okay." (Still barely awake.)
"Yeah, so here's the deal. We want you to build a site we give you, and if we like your work, we'll pay you for some other sites at a prearranged price."
"What?"
"I said..."
"Yeah, I heard what you said. You basically want me to build you a site for free so that you can see what I'm capable of?"
"Yes, that's correct."
"Listen, buddy. I don't know what kind of an idiot you're looking for, but I'm not that idiot. I've got a portfolio with some sample sites, and if you want some more I'd be more than happy to email them to you, but I'm not building a site for anyone for free just to prove myself when I don't need to do that."
"Yes, you do."
"To who?"
"To us."
"Really? Well, here's what I see from my perspective. I see a company cold-calling me at 8:00 on a Saturday morning, a date and time when not a lot of people are awake and/or fully coherent. I see a company wanting me to work for free and therefore take advantage of cheap, unintelligent monkey labor. And I see someone I have no interest in working with as a result."
"You can't talk to potential customers that way!"
"Potential customers would potentially pay me. I don't see any potential here. I just see someone looking to take advantage of me, and I'm not that stupid."
"Oh, I see. Well, thanks and have a good day."

After a while, Dave, you'll develop a skin for this stuff. Trust me, it comes with time, experience, and a customer base.

**ForrestCroce** · 12-17-2007, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davet

is it me or does it seem like everyone wants a website for free or just pennies now-a-days? The offers I see posted on forums like this and craigslist are just ridiculous. "Web designers needed for $10/hour" or people posting projects with $0 budget. I could get a job at the local fast food place and make $10/hour.

Some of these people will get burned out, and quit the business. Some will jack up their prices to market rate. Unfortunately, for each of these, someone else will come along and give you a whole site for $75.

The same thing happens in photography. Part of it is that anyone can buy a digital camera at the drug store and download a hacked copy of Photoshop ... so naturally they're pros, and with cut throat prices, the world is their oyster. Mostly the laws of supply and demand even the situation out.

To play devil's advocate, though, part of what we're talking about is only right. On my portraits, you can count the subject's eye lashes. I'd be embarassed to deliver less, but most customers don't really see or care about the difference. How many web customers want xhtml 1.1 strict with no validation errors ... and how many want a site that works?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Hi there, we've lost our full-time designer and we're looking for someone to help out on a temporary basis."
"Okay." (Still barely awake.)
"Yeah, so here's the deal. We want you to build a site we give you, and if we like your work, we'll pay you for some other sites at a prearranged price."

I enquired about an asp.net dev project from a forum. The person had the site mostly done, but needed a few changes. Turns out they didn't have the source code, or much else, and wanted me to take the dll files and decompile them. Now, I've never been a member of a union, but whatever they did to the last developer to get the person to quit on the spot and not deliver the code ... is something I didn't want to go through.

**DaveMo~** · 12-17-2007, 11:56 PM

David, I'll do the guy's website that was trying to freebie you to death for $10/hour. The thing is that I'll work very, very slow on it. If he should quit paying, then I quit working.

I once asked a guy running heavy equipment what he charged and his normal charge was $150/hour. I asked him what he would charge a friend. He told me that he would only charge me $75/hour, but he would work slower. Hmm.... I've taken his stance since then.

Try to freebie me to death and I'll work slower.

Dave

**milomedia** · 12-18-2007, 01:08 PM

Hah, nicely done. It is amazing how your work ethic can bend depending on who you're working for and how they approach your prices. For a consumer point of view it's like saying "complain about prices and never get nice work done..." unless of course you hire someone off shore... oh wait, isn't that what this thread is about? <snicker>

**CSS4Life** · 12-18-2007, 02:24 PM

I'm very worried about this as I want to move into this industry. I see technology charging forwards and wonder where will the internet be in 10 or 15 years time? Will web design still be a career then? WYSIWYG editors will likely never be as good as a professional designer, if not only because of restraints with original colour schemes and designs.

Our world is making a transition right now - for some, this will be very beneficial. For others, it will be very painful. Industry will continue to decline for years to come in the West and services will increasingly move to India where people work for what we see as nothing and where they still speak English. Eventually, things will even out. By that time, I'll have spent most of my working lifetime and I'll probably be 45 or 50. It's then that things will finally balance out and most Chinese and Indian citezens will come up to the quality of life that most Americans and Westerners are experiencing right now.

I think web designers will simply have to target their market carefully. IT is a continually growing industry and technology is becoming ever more important. We need to target ourselves as quality designers rather than dirt cheap designers. You CAN hire someone in India and get a web site built for $100, but then you'll find you can't get any decent support if things mess up a bit and you'll have to hire a quality designer to put it right. People live and learn

**fastreplies** · 12-18-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whym

I'm very worried about this as I want to move into this industry. I see technology charging forwards and wonder where will the internet be in 10 or 15 years time?

Internet will be around but hosting and design industries may die.
Technology will allow you to run your website from your PC and templates
will take away the personality from sites but it will be cheap or free and…
isn’t what this thread is all about: "what is going on"?

fastreplies

**Learning Newbie** · 12-18-2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milomedia

Hah, nicely done. It is amazing how your work ethic can bend depending on who you're working for and how they approach your prices. For a consumer point of view it's like saying "complain about prices and never get nice work done..." unless of course you hire someone off shore... oh wait, isn't that what this thread is about? <snicker>

I agree. When will people bow down to my sense of entitlement? Just the other day, I offered this older couple a shiny new quarter for their mansion on the hill (with a for sale sign no less!). But they didn't like me complaining about their prices, and they were so slow to invite me to look around and see if I like it or not that I finally gave up, left, and looked at someone else's house.

**CSS4Life** · 12-18-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

I offered this older couple a shiny new quarter for their mansion on the hill (with a for sale sign no less!). But they didn't like me complaining about their prices, and they were so slow to invite me to look around and see if I like it or not that I finally gave up, left, and looked at someone else's house.

Is that true?

**Learning Newbie** · 12-18-2007, 05:36 PM

No, I was trying to make the point that it's not such a bad thing to be firm. If money is really what makes the world go around (and I don't believe that) and a person decides that their time is worth a certain a mount of money, they shouldn't feel bad about that when a person who can afford to pay them reasonably chooses not to.

What I was trying to get at is no one would ever offer a family $0.25 for their house this day in age. That's so unacceptable and socially ignorant, it would be humiliating and you'd never live it down. Maybe it shouldn't be all that different to try and take advantage of someone who puts food on their family by making designs, or programming, or whatever else?

**CSS4Life** · 12-18-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Maybe it shouldn't be all that different to try and take advantage of someone who puts food on their family by making designs, or programming, or whatever else?

Lol I believe someone is catching the Bushism fever! I know a lot is going round right now... Only joking - yeh I got you the first time - only joking with you really!

I'd also agree that money doesn't make the world go round (yet) and shouldn't ever make it go round. However, capitalism is sadly penetrating deep into society and many people live to work rather than working to live these days.

Dan

**Learning Newbie** · 12-18-2007, 05:50 PM

Well as much as I think the world would be better without capitalism, the fact is that mass poverty is a slow form of violence. So when I hear about people calling techies up saying "hey if you make me $10,000 for free I might pay you next time" it irritates me.