General Discussions

**Phaedrus** · 10-26-2004, 04:47 AM

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First, the Patriot Act was passed not by one man but by congress.

They didn't even read it. They passed it in the atmosphere of solidarity created by the terrorist attacks. Don't get me wrong, they should all be fired for passing something they didn't even look at. But this horrible piece of legislation originated from the Bush administration, and I hold them responsible for its existence in the first place.

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Terrorists were allowed to be here and get away with so much because they had too much liberties...

Ah yes, those pesky civil liberties. Always getting in the way of things like police states.

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Only the entire world did not take action when it was needed. Why? because the UN oil for food program. Really look into this and it explains perfectly why countries like France, Germany and Russia did not want to act on too much. They felt buying their security was more appropriate. Bush did not squander our support, he stood up for what is right. He did not turn his back on his country when the UN turned up to be a bunch of crooked beurocrats.

I'm not sure what you're saying here... it was the Bush administration who lied in order to invade a sovereign nation... so Bush is the one who's crooked.

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You don't know where to begin because all the lie's you hear about the economy being bad are just that, lies. Back any of it up with facts? I dare you.

Well, I hate when a debate degenerates into people throwing statistics at each other. I suppose I could put something together, but I just thought it was common knowledge that the economy sucks right now. I tell you what, I'll debate this point, but I think you should have the burden of proof. Show me that the economy is doing well.

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Now, how long has the school system been dominated by the Democratic party?

I've never said Democrats don't suck. I hate politicians in general, not just Republicans. It's true that the American school system has sucked for a long time now. My point is that it hasn't gotten any better under the Bush administration. I'm not an expert and I haven't studied it but I come from a large family of educators. They are constantly *****ing about it so I assume they have their reasons. I think one of the things they say is that it takes so much of the curriculum out of the hands of the teachers. They have no flexibility or input.

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No dissenting opinion allowed huh? Remember Mr. Clarke I spoke of earlier? Did you know that he served as Bush's chief of counterterrorism? Yes, this dissenter was chosen by Bush to serve under him.

As far as I know, he wasn't a dissenter when he was chosen, he became one later on.

**Republikin** · 10-26-2004, 10:52 AM

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They didn't even read it. They passed it in the atmosphere of solidarity created by the terrorist attacks. Don't get me wrong, they should all be fired for passing something they didn't even look at. But this horrible piece of legislation originated from the Bush administration, and I hold them responsible for its existence in the first place.

Come one now, your not even offering up sound reasoning. Your really trying to stretch that facts to fit what you believe. Just because John Kerry said he did not read it does not mean that no one else read it. Also, if it were that easy to dupe congress don't you think human nature would dictate our having some really self serving laws for politicians. I mean more than they already do.

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Ah yes, those pesky civil liberties. Always getting in the way of things like police states.

At what point do you waive your rights in this country? Should it not be when you plot to kill thousands of her citizens? We do not live in a police state, once again I dare you to find anyone you know who's civil liberties have been intruded upon. Just one who's library record was used to steal away their rights.

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I'm not sure what you're saying here... it was the Bush administration who lied in order to invade a sovereign nation... so Bush is the one who's crooked.

Pray tell, how exactly did he lie?

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Well, I hate when a debate degenerates into people throwing statistics at each other. I suppose I could put something together, but I just thought it was common knowledge that the economy sucks right now. I tell you what, I'll debate this point, but I think you should have the burden of proof. Show me that the economy is doing well.

Debating an issue, or multiple issues is more than an exchange of feelings. If you can't back up your claims, then what bearing do they hold in reality? If by common knowledge you mean that someone told you so then by all means, continue to live in misery for the sake of someone else.

I was the one who asked you to back up your claims. Trying to flip the script on me shows the sign of a weak argument.

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I've never said Democrats don't suck. I hate politicians in general, not just Republicans. It's true that the American school system has sucked for a long time now. My point is that it hasn't gotten any better under the Bush administration. I'm not an expert and I haven't studied it but I come from a large family of educators. They are constantly *****ing about it so I assume they have their reasons. I think one of the things they say is that it takes so much of the curriculum out of the hands of the teachers. They have no flexibility or input.

Ah, I almost forgot the fact that one man is supposed to reform a whole screwed up system in 4 years or he's considered a failure. Did I forget to mention above that the effects of this plan will take upto ten years? No, no, I'm pretty sure I mentioned that.

It is these teachers opinions, their flexibility and input, that is exactly what makes the system so screwed up. I remember all these teachers that I had having a severe slant to the left. I remembered being lectured on their opinions on presidents and the government. This is quite simply not the way it's meant to be. The fact that these teachers are *****ing is because the plan is working and the old way of doing things is being done away with. I only wish that my school's were held accountable for their actions. One school actually met with my father after we moved and admitted to him that they failed in helping me, but what could we have done? Now, if schools want to play games with children they lose federal funding. Very simple concept. Money talks.

**mingamonster** · 08:42 AM

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Originally Posted by cptnwinky

Farenheit 9/11 was a big falacious lie. Watch Farenhype 9/11 and every point Moore tries to make is countered and proven wrong with fact, actual facts not wishful thinking.

Phaedrus I will wait for you to finish your thought before my rebuttle.

Yeah. Watch Fahrenhype 9/11, because we all know Moore really has ties with Osama Bin Laden.

Fahrenheit 9/11 is composed mostly of video clips, which give you the right to decern them for yourself. I highly disagree that Moore has anything to do with Osama bin Laden, making Fahrenhype 9/11 a laughing stock in itself. Be ashamed if you have seen this movie.

I have to say it is totally irresponisble for Bush to have let terrorists get their hands on those explosives. Boy, i feel safe now that terrorsists now have 380 tons of explosives. That is A LOT of explosives to have gone up missing. Bush knew about it a long time ago, but it was not addressed to the American public until now. Why was nobody watching them? Why didn't Bush say anything after Kerry accused him of having troops only guarding oil reserves when we first invaded Iraq during the first debate? And even Osama Bin Laden criticized Bush for having read My Pet Goat, instead of taking immediate action.

But no, Bush can't do wrong, he never has, and won't admit it. He's so righteous. I don't know when Jesus would willingly accept war. Maybe if Iraq actually attacked us, which they had not, then it could have been justified. How is killing them first ok? But how do you feel about the innocent children that have died since the war? That's bad, but not too bad. If Bush died, then it would be bad! There would be some pay back time! No life is more important than the other. I don't know how any Christian can support the death penalty. We do not have a right to take life. How could you anyway, regardless? Christians should show love, not revenge. God shall judge all. That's his job.

And as for liberals destroying religion in our country. Now, I believe religion is good, and everyone has a right to practice, express and uphold their own beliefs. Nobody is entirely right, no religion is more right than the other, we don't know all of the secrets of the universe. For all we know, Muslims are right, Buddhists or Jews. Maybe Atheists are right. Nobody knows. That's why religion is made up of beliefs. They're not provable facts, although they might have truthful points about mankind. But I don't want to live in a country that bases its actions and ideals entirely on Christianity. It should not reflect the views of this country, nor should it rule it's law system. There are millions of people with various religions and belief systems living in America, none proven to be better than the other, only contrary to one's personal beliefs. Nobody should be forced to abide by the laws of the Bible. That's why God gave us free will, the right to choose to do right or wrong. My actions should be of no concern to anyone, unless I harm another, steal, kill, etc. And I don't know how Christians rights are being taken away from them? We can go to Church, pray, celebrate holidays, and so on. We all have a right to practice our beliefs, but we don't have a right to force them on others. This is America, land of the free. Where people should be able to marry the same sex. I don't know how two men getting married defiles your own marriage. Their lives do not pertain to you. If you think that it's wrong to have gay marriage, then you shouldn't marry someone of the same gender. You ideals should not reflect the freedom of other individuals.

I think abortions are wrong. Ok. Well that doesn't mean I can force someone else not to because of my beliefs. Their life is not my priority, nor any of my business. I can say openly I feel it is wrong, but I can't stop people from making a choice, which is a right given from God. I think it is good to talk to people about it and voice your opinion on the subject. You should only try to urge people not to, but not take their rights away. I've been a Christian my whole life, and have never been persecuted for my beliefs, even though I was an evangelist. Now, as I'm no longer one, I have been persecuted. I must be forced to marry a man, only because the Bible says its wrong. I can't have an abortion, because the Bible says its wrong. I am judged by other Christians for being a heathen. Even some of my family members refuse to speak to me. I'm a total horrible sinner! And I must follow a president that said God told him to go to war with Iraq. This is not the America I thought I knew. Bush also said that "There ought to be limits to freedom." That's not an American. That's not a Christian either. Rich men have weak relationships with God, and strong ones' with money.

The News hides so much from the public. Its a giant commercial anymore. Selling us to either candidate. I want the real raw truth. Bush has been hiding it. The Bush administration is secretive, more so than any administarion I have seen. Bush has gotten away with more than he would have, if it were another time. War does not stop terrorism.
Well, like Bush said, he wasn't very concerned about Bin Laden really. A statment like that should not be taken lightly. Bush did change his focus of the war on terror, instead of taking care of the real threat. Bin Laden was the terrorist, Not Suddam! He claimed full responisbilty on the video tape. So, I guess we're going to go to war with N Korea and Iran? Well, they DO have nuclear weapons, why did we skip them and go to Iraq first? Are we going to take care of them now? I really don't think bombing people is going stop killing and terrorism. We need a better strategy.

p.s. Did you know that George W. Bush was a cheerleader in prep school?
http://www.celebrity-pics.net/dp/2-22.htm

Here's a video EVERYONE should watch:
http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/

Are you retro or metro?:http://www.retrovsmetro.org/retrovsmetro/

Answer this: How do you feel that Bush is allowing mining and logging in the Seqouias National Park in California?

**mingamonster** · 08:54 AM

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Originally Posted by jdrogersjim

Everything that Michael Moore said in farenhyte 9/11 is backed up with a source...credible soures too, like the bbc.

Also, dont you think that Michael Moore would have been sued for putting lies in his movie? I think that if the Bush administration would do something like this they would just be putting themselves out in the open about what they are doing.

Yes, why didn't Bush sue Moore if his movie expoited lies about him and his adnimistration? That's a terrible offense. Bush didn't do anything about it, nor did he openly give proof of it's lies. There were a lot of alligations about the president, why didn't he counter argue them? I can't think of many alligations Bush has refuted, he says nothing to prove his innocence, but continues to scrutinize Kerry. Kerry voted agianst suppliest for our troops? We'll he explained why he did in the second debate, if you were listening. But Bush has cut our troops pay. He deducted a soldiers pay for not being on the job for 5 days, because he was dead. Bush even openly admitted that there aren't enough troops in Iraq. I don't see how things are improving. I also fear that there could be a civil war in Iraq, even after things have been settled and we have left. Arabs have their own certian relgious beliefs and conflicts with other surrounding groups, it is a hostile place. But, a lot of what I saw in Fahrenheit 9/11 were things I knew a long time ago from BBC news and others. Moore wasn't the only one who was pressing these issues and findings. Most people watch the news, instead of reading and going to other sources for infomation. The only way a mass number people would have gotten this same information is by making a movie that people could see, i.e. Fahrenheit 9/11. It's really sad that in today's world we're so lazy and brainwashed by tv.

**Republikin** · 10-30-2004, 12:14 PM

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Yeah. Watch Fahrenhype 9/11, because we all know Moore really has ties with Osama Bin Laden.

You missed the point of that clip all together. He simply used Moores same loose tactics to tie himself to the Bin Laden family. It was meant to illustrate the fact that Moore didn't use rational reasoning in his argument, just loose allegations that could mean a million things.

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I have to say it is totally irresponisble for Bush to have let terrorists get their hands on those explosives. Boy, i feel safe now that terrorsists now have 380 tons of explosives.

Boy, you left wingers, all you do is regurgitate information, whether its true or false, fortunatly for me, its most of the time false. Let me prove you and your precious Kerry wrong here...

First there were only 3 Tons.
Second the explosives went missing before our troops got there.

Also, which is it going to be, you left want your cake and eat it too. Either there were WMD's or there were not. How many people does a weapon have to kill before it is considered a WMD? Those explosives are what would be used to detonate nuclear warheads.

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I don't know when Jesus would willingly accept war.

Have you actually read the bible? First, the war in heaven where satan and his angels were cast down into hell. Then, how many times did God command the Israelites to go to war? How many times did he do the fighting for them? The Hebrews got Israel because God commanded them to go and take it by war. They went to war with people who did not attack them first and God commanded it. Now, we have armagedon to look forward to, this will be another war, the war to end all wars in which Jesus will lead us into battle against Satan and his chronies.

As far as religion goes, I agree with you to the extent that we should all be free to practice what we believe. However, if the left in this country had their way christians would not be allowed to practice their beliefs. They are trying to remove us from God, now is that right? So how do we combat that and preserve our freedom? We have to try and pass laws to protect our beliefs.

Jesus Commanded us to spread his word, to baptize in his name. How can we remain complacent to the things that go on around us and only consider ourselves saved? When you take on the name of Jesus, you have a responsibility to spread his word. You can't just sit there in the world and say, ohwell, they are heathens I am not I know that I'll be saved and I will do nothing about them.

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The News hides so much from the public. Its a giant commercial anymore. Selling us to either candidate. I want the real raw truth. Bush has been hiding it. The Bush administration is secretive, more so than any administarion I have seen. Bush has gotten away with more than he would have, if it were another time. War does not stop terrorism.

So why then do you trust what they print without question? Why did you believe that explosives story without further research?

Also, war is not the end its the means to the end. Do you think that countries that harbor or support terrorism would just roll over when we came into town? Do you think they would say, sure, we will give up our power for you to implant democracy. Only democracy will curb terrorism and it won't happen over night. I am so sick of people who just want it all to be over but don't want to do the dirty work to get there.

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How do you feel that Bush is allowing mining and logging in the Seqouias National Park in California?

God gave us these resources to use and if we don't start using our resources we will be forced to be dependant on foriegn resources. Just like what has happened with oil. And no, the government did not create this oil mess, industry created this oil mess, consumers created it by choosing vehicles powered by oil. It was the most economical and cheap resource to use at the time, even throughout the last century.

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Yes, why didn't Bush sue Moore if his movie expoited lies about him and his adnimistration? That's a terrible offense.

Does anyone pay attention? Moore has every right to lie about Bush. It's called free speech. The only terrible offense is that the left in this country have to lie in order to make their point. They rarely tell the truth and then tell you that its the GOP that is lieing to you.

**WaHoOoO!** · 10-30-2004, 01:39 PM

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Originally Posted by mingamonster

[...]p.s. Did you know that George W. Bush was a cheerleader in prep school?http://www.celebrity-pics.net/dp/2-22.htm[...]

Who cares? If I run for public office, I'm sure someone will probably point out that I was a metrosexual theatre-type student in high school. Does it matter? Does it make a difference who I am? Nope. Not in the least.

Also, a video that I think people should watch: Link. I can't vouch for the validity, but it does make you think, to say the least.

**JOEBIALEK** · 10-30-2004, 02:29 PM

Bush will lose......

**Republikin** · 10-30-2004, 06:42 PM

I too have wondered for so long what actually hit the pentagon. It's obvious that it was not a boeing 757. I just don't know the facts so I try not to speculate. That I leave upto the left in this country.

JOEBIALEK How nice of you to re-join your conversation. I wish you could rebut with something of more substance but nonetheless we will see.

**scotia** · 10-30-2004, 07:53 PM

...of other posts. I did scan them...trust me.

Living in UK, I have watched late night slots of the Kerry V Bush election.

Living in Scotland, I have long looked at the political restraints set upon us through devolution, we still have to adhere to UK Parliament, because as a Nation, sadly, Scotland no longer owns its assets. (call it sell offs through Tory rules...altough Blair?...I wouldnt wash his arse either)

Enough of that. (for now!)

I worked within HMForces (Army) as a commissioned "civillian". Whilst I taught autistic kids of HMF to ride horses (my primary qualification) I had to watch my friends, under duty and paid service be shipped out to Ireland, Iraq and Bosnia. I was a Captain, and privvy to "lower end " discussion in the mess.

Now, whilst I might heart bleed for the images I see, and the truth I know of the suffering of thousands of people nationwide, I miss my friends. I miss the guys who used to walk into the bar, and say Hi. I hated the funerals, standing shoulder to shoulder with any army wives, watching husbands be lowered into the ground, and later comforting the children left behind.

I have discouraged my own two boys, from joining the services, because?....

I am sick and tired, as a Scottish female/ex army/and mum, (from Irish blood) of offering up sacrifices which, I am sorry, will never be honoured, never be anything other than futile and NEVER be worth a toss in the "Big Mans Political Game".....When WAS the last time you saw ANY of our "great leaders" RIGHT UP THERE?

...for example, the Black Watch Regiment have been draughted into Bagdhad. Quite right!....Why should the Scottish forces who are paid and time served be any less of CANNON FODDER for a country which didnt want our involvement in the FIRST PLACE?
Except, I dont see Tony Blair with his bergen on, fighting side by side, shoulder to shoulder with those he condemns to foreign parts?

Lets face it, in any politics, who wouldnt promise the earth to stay in a lovely house, have security and bunkers to retreat to, have a huge income and still remain "untouchable"....

All politicians, UK, US, Uhuh?WHO cares, have come through ranks, yet learned absolutly nothing. I remove myself generally, from that which I know I cannot influence.

Every country in the world, (and I was a member of Anti-Apartheid at age 16, travelled to SA as a teenager, and tried to stand ground I believed in) ....

Look, for those US members of this forum, your government might have felt passionate about Iraq, Bin Laden, and Saddam, 9/11...but what has actually changed?...there is simply now another people who are too "conditioned" through theyre own restricted media, to do anything but hate your involvement. And, hate your politics and ultimately your people.

Before I am slaughtered, I might add, that an image of mine in my personal gallery showed the Twin Towers (as magnificent pieces of architecture) in the background.
Within 4 days, I received over 8.2 THOUSAND emails...it took myself, and five friends to reply to EACH AND EVERY ONE over 4 months, but? We did.

For christs sake, can we not rise above politicians?..can we not as a people of ANY country/religion/nation, realise, that these men/women we eventually promote to the ranks of "prime minister, president, or dictator"....were simply some bare assed babe delivered through natural channels?...they are not to be admired for taking others into war, they are not to be admired for making grand pre-written speaches?....

These are lives. For many years Iraq and Iran fought. I have my thoughts on this, I feel compassion. I do. But I do believe, every politician LIES. These guys DEPEND on our belief, to , lets face it, keep them in the maner they become accustomed to.

Does any "normal" human truely BELIEVE, that these guys in prominant posts, really WANT our questions?. do they REALLY want us to question the motives for that which they do?....

I dont think so.

I say, If countries, can find no common grounds, so be it. I do NOT want UK troops in Ireland, Iraq or anywhere else they *actually* do not belong. Or, indeed inflame!

What has Iraq ACTUALLY gained?
What has Nothern Ireland ACTUALLY gained?
and what, as mothers, fathers, sisters or brothers.....have we all lost?

And, fundamentally, was it worth it?

Lets ask Vietnam verterans, or WW2 v's, or my long dead uncle about his being the first on the scene at Belsen.

Can "good thoughts/intentions" ACTUALLY change or overt a War?...No.

If I could, I would "wave that magic wand". I would live troubles to simply be confined to family arguments. Like when you tell your kids off, for making too much noise, of maybe they deserve punishment for graffiti!....ultimatley, would you sign their papers to die?...for a country the might not even be able to spell?...I dont see Iraq troops coming over to Scotland to fight for those who live below the poverty line?....

Why Not?...

Do UK troops invade the US, to fight for calm on the streets of Brooklyn, Harlem?
Does Tony Blair claim in his speeches that "the black minority shall rise up and be seen", does anyone actually care about the "great" prospective leaders? (ok, so like Malcolm X?)

In fact, If all these "great leaders" are so concerned with the "common people's rights"...please tell me where I can get Tony Blair on the phone to fix my darn boiler?...because me and my kids had not heating for four days!

Oh, gees, pixel...this was a Prime Score Rant..but y'know what?..Im proud of it.

**mingamonster** · 10-30-2004, 07:53 PM

You have to admit that its funny that Bush was a cheerleader. Not that he should be ashamed of it. People seem to view him as a macho guy, but that doesn't seem the case when he was younger.

**scotia** · 10-30-2004, 08:06 PM

Look, if everyone in the whole **** WORLD could agree, wouldnt it be somthing like this?

OK, we ALL disarm. Whats the point anyway?...if we all have equal weapons to destroy?
Who's gonna be left to applaud the victory?

Lets all concentrate on our people, and be held judged by them. Lets try to eliminate poverty, (afterall there IS enough consummate wealth to do so)...why should these images of Afghanistan mean so little to me, as a white UK single mum?..(well, truth is, they mean a huge amount, and I get filled eyes).

My elder son's friend died last Monday. Aged 11. My heart cannot cope with this loss, the way I feel for his mum, whom Ive known for 17 years. Why should that be any different to mums and dads the world over, who loose kids through some stupid, utterly inane war?

I am so sorry, but my brain has no concept of this. I will walk, as will my son on Monday, to watch an 11 year old child be buried. There will be thousands doing the same, through wars around the world.

What could possibly be right with that?

**mingamonster** · 09:40 PM

Poverty is why people lean on crime.

**Republikin** · 10-30-2004, 11:00 PM

Democracy gives people a choice. In a democracy you have options so that you don't have to live in poverty.

I know that alot of people in the US like to believe that their poverty is the fault of someone else, some person or corporate entity or race keeping them down. The truth is its all about choices. At some point in a poor persons life they either have or will be given the choice to make it better, no I do not mean that they will be offered a million dollar job and never have worries again, I only mean that in a democracy no situation is permanent unless you choose to make it so.

This, I believe, is why we fight. Ofcourse, I realize that class has alot to do with it as well. The rich would not be rich without the middle class and the middle class would not be middle class without the poor working for minimum wage. That is simply how the system works and no matter how idealistic we get, there is only one person capable of a better form of government than the one we currenty have, that person is Jesus Christ and I truly believe he will come again and enact this government and every city in the world will flow unto Zion and we will have no need to war or seek gain. Until that happens though, the reality is that life is brutal. The brutality is only subverted by moments of our personal actions. When we, as individuals choose to make a difference, that is the only way it truly happens.

Like I had said before, war is not the end, its the means to an end. Unfortunatly, people will not inheritly do what is right, therefore sometimes we must choose war, even when it does not choose us. It's natural to dream of a perfect peace and harmony, just not natural to live in that world when the rest of the world does not. We would inevitably be awoken from that dream by a bullet.

**mingamonster** · 10-31-2004, 12:48 AM

you will never win a war on terrorism then

**mingamonster** · 03:22 AM

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Originally Posted by cptnwinky

Democracy gives people a choice. In a democracy you have options so that you don't have to live in poverty.

I know that alot of people in the US like to believe that their poverty is the fault of someone else, some person or corporate entity or race keeping them down. The truth is its all about choices. At some point in a poor persons life they either have or will be given the choice to make it better, no I do not mean that they will be offered a million dollar job and never have worries again, I only mean that in a democracy no situation is permanent unless you choose to make it so.

Some kids grow up in broken homes, with parents that are alcoholics, child abusers, lazy good-for-nothings, etc. So they don't have their parents to back them up when they choose to go to college. Some people can't even afford to pay to go to a regular university. Minimum wage cannot get someone a college education, unless they somehow manage to save up enough or go to a lousy 2 year community college. And some people have mental illnesses, which make them incapable of living normal human lives. Some schitzophrenics are homeless because of their disease. Not everyone that is poor are they way they are because of being a lazy bum. Thankfully for me, my parents are paying for most of my college, and I'm going to a cheapo community college to get my gen. ed. over with. Many kids aren't as lucky as I am. Some people have ADD, and cannot function properly in society. They have a hard time holding jobs, they have a hard time at school because of an inability to focus and learn, even though they want to. Some people become termanily ill, and spend most of their money on their medical bills. Some people don't even have health care. What are these people supposed to do? Things aren't plainly black and white. Things aren't so sipmle to say, well this is the way it is...without knowing what it's like to be in another's shoes. It's still a shame that people have to live this way in America. But I realize, there are people that don't care about anything, and deserve to be poor because of total carelessness. This just isn't always the case.

**Republikin** · 10-31-2004, 07:25 AM

See, your stretching out there to find the most extreme case and trying to say that I am calling poor people lazy bums.

You know what, I am pretty poor. I also have ADD and grew up with something called ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) which in my case is also accompanied by Bi-Polar. Do I have trouble focusing and holding down jobs? Yes. I too, can not afford college. I can not get all the funding I need. Just recently I tried to apply, because of my income situation I was awarded plenty of federal aid, only it stopped about 3700 dollars short. So I went to get a personal loan for the rest of the money, why not Sallie Mae helps millions of people get money for college, why not me? My credit is horrible therefore I could not get that loan. Now, this is where we come to personal choices. My credit situation is no one elses fault but my own. I do not blame it on anyone else or on my psychological problems. In the end, I made choices early on in life that inhibited my options later on in my life.

Now just because I said that everyone in a democracy is given the opportunity to better themselves does not automatically mean that they will have the opportunity to go to college. What I mean is that, even though I am having a hard time going to school now, I can still get the help with my mental illness' to make my life better. To help me keep a job and hopefully, in the near future afford to pay for my college. For others it may be just the opportunity to get off the streets and get a job. For others it's a choice between selling drugs for money or working hard to sell cars (just an example, could be anything).

Too many people in this society feel that because things are ruff for them its everyone else's fault. That the government should pay for everything they can not and they should never have to pay it back. I agree that there are needed social programs, if it was not for MassHealth my wife and child would probably not be as healthy as they are and I would not be talking to a therapist. But I do not ever feel that the state owes me this healthcare and if they took it away tommorow, well, tough luck. I created the conditions in my life that have led me to where I am today. I made my bed, now I will lay in it.

Nobody deserves to be poor, everyone deserves opportunity. What you do with yours is your choice, not mine.

**mingamonster** · 10-31-2004, 06:58 PM

Maybe we need to raise minimum wage?

**Republikin** · 10-31-2004, 08:50 PM

Can we at least try to get back on subject? Can anyone counter the points I have made throughout this thread?

**mingamonster** · 11-02-2004, 02:17 AM

We all hear about the great faith of George W. Bush. But what denomination is he? What are his beliefs? He is after all, a highly religious man, whose life revolves around Jesus. Yet he doesn't go to church. How could a devout Christian avoid going to church on Sunday?

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=vKO1...i2qoWQfW%3D%3D
http://www.philocrites.com/archives/001259.html

**Republikin** · 11-02-2004, 10:03 AM

Ok, its obvious this thread is not going to stay on topic, could we close it please?