General Discussions

**Physicsguy** · 09:24 PM

Wow, what a giant post. Sorry, I just kind of let my mind get the better of me. Skip to the end for the TL;DR (too long, didn't read) version.

Hey TT,

Over the years, I've asked you countless questions. I've also given a few answers myself (just a few), and so here I am, asking a question about what I really have no clue about.

I am in Grade 11 (or Year 11 for you people abroad), 15 years old, and am wondering about what university/college to go to. I know that they are different, that college tends to be the 'applied' and university is 'academic'. So I am stuck wondering where to go.

I live in Ontario, Canada, so I've been looking at a bunch in my approximate area. Ryerson, Humber, Waterloo, U of T, etc. A few seem to have exactly the right program for me, which is web development. However, I noticed a few things about the program's description.

One program said it was for Web Development (which is what I want to go in to). It said something about server administration, MySQL, and that stuff, however on a basic level. I'm not trying to brag, but I wouldn't say that I am on a basic level. Not an advanced, uber-genius level, but I know what I'm doing in more situations than the average person who is just starting out. My friends say that I 'think in code', for example. Are these programs right for me? Would I learn anything in them, or just re-learn what I already know after being on these forums since early 2009 and making 'websites' since I was 12 (from FreeWebs to custom (albeit small) CMSs?

Something that irks (word of the day there) me is that some of the places linked web development and design as if they are one. I know that they are no such thing. Although both 'subjects' work very closely in the business world, they are completely different skill sets. Designers think very artistically, and creatively, while developers think very logically (as in programming logic). I talk with my designer buddy at school and he thinks of things differently than me.

Another thing I noticed while reading the descriptions of the university-level courses is 'learning basic HTML and CSS programming'. First of all, I would hardly call HTML or CSS a programming language; they are markup and it's styling. Secondly, why are U-level students learning BASIC-level stuff? Anybody could take a few hours and read W3Schools and 'know' HTML and CSS. Of course, actually using those skills in a website is a different story, but knowing is still half the battle.

To extend on this, one of the 'requirements' was freaking chemistry. Why do I need to know the chemical properties of Gold and Helium when I'm typing object-oriented programming into a compiler? Seriously, I think the people who pick the reqs just got bored. Major WTF there.

Anyway...

So a lot of these programs seem either unfit or 'too easy' for me. I am seriously not trying to boast or be some sort of conceited jerk, but I don't want to spend ~$7000/term learning what I could read on W3Schools for free and in much less time.

So my question to you is: Are these higher-education courses actually very high-level, compared to somebody who already knows a thing or two? The unfortunate reality is that Google or really anybody won't hire you over a guy with a degree and certificate, just because of accolades. You may know 3 times more than the cert dude, but he is the one with the awards.

What are your experiences in university/college? What 'pathway' did you take to get there? I'd love to hear your story; what to/not to do.

Thanks so much guys,

-PG

**NullPointer** · 06:55 AM

I'm probably a bit biased when it comes to this topic; I majored in computer science at UC Irvine. I'm honestly not too sure how things are done at other colleges. Out of high school most of my friends went to a school in the UC and their experiences are more or less in line with mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Physicsguy

To extend on this, one of the 'requirements' was freaking chemistry. Why do I need to know the chemical properties of Gold and Helium when I'm typing object-oriented programming into a compiler? Seriously, I think the people who pick the reqs just got bored. Major WTF there.

General ed is going to be a component of any degree no matter what you major in. I ended up taking courses in philosophy, political science, writing, physics, and a whole lot of math. If you go to a four year university you just have to accept it and try to take courses that match you interests.

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Another thing I noticed while reading the descriptions of the university-level courses is 'learning basic HTML and CSS programming'. First of all, I would hardly call HTML or CSS a programming language; they are markup and it's styling. Secondly, why are U-level students learning BASIC-level stuff? Anybody could take a few hours and read W3Schools and 'know' HTML and CSS. Of course, actually using those skills in a website is a different story, but knowing is still half the battle.

Any program that spends a significant amount of time teaching you HTML or CSS is probably a waste of money. One thing I liked (maybe not so much at the time) about my major was that we didn't spend a whole lot of time on the basics. Only one course I ever took was really aimed at teaching a particular programming language. If you took a course that involved a language you didn't know you had to learn it on the fly.

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What are your experiences in university/college? What 'pathway' did you take to get there? I'd love to hear your story; what to/not to do.

My school didn't offer a major specifically in web development. However, in my opinion you can learn everything you need for web development with a degree in CS. The catch is that the degree is fairly general. You'll learn programming techniques, algorithm design, data structures, software engineering (a web app isn't all that different from any other piece of software). You'll also have to learn less related things like AI, digital logic, networks, OS principals, etc. Keep in mind that seemingly unrelated courses have a way of teaching you things that end up being useful.

**chrishirst** · 10-07-2011, 06:59 AM

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Designers think very artistically, and creatively, while developers think very logically (as in programming logic). I talk with my designer buddy at school and he thinks of things differently than me.

Absolutely YES!!! I have always advocated that there should be a distinct differentiation os designers and developers as they are two different disciplines and as you so rightly say need two different mindsets. occasionally you may come across someone who can do both, but it's more likely to be a good designer who is a decent coder than a good programmer being a decent designer.

Personally my design skills leave a lot to be desired, I know what "looks right" for a g ven purpose when I see it but I could not get from an abstract description to a really good design, but I can take a sketch or a picture and turn it into functioning code. Similarly with backend stuff, programmers do not make good user interfaces designers, Joomla and Drupal are proof of that, but always write code for far more features than needed while missing out the basics (still there, still doing it

)

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My friends say that I 'think in code

I know that statement well, though when I was programming seriously I could "add up" in hexadecimal

and count in Octal (P.L.C. I/O's are 'numbered' in octal).
Probably counts as being "Super Nerdy"

However the thing about school and college courses on development and programming is that they are several years behind the "sharp edge" simply because it takes that long for the education authorities that long to decide what text books to use and have the school curriculum written up.

In essence further education should simply teach students how to learn rather than indoctrinating them into the stifled "by the rule book" teaching of "how to pass exams"

My college years were part-time in mechanical engineering and electronics and computers were very large things that took up almost as huch space as a four bedroomed house.

At fifteen/sixteen we all thought we know everything there is to know about whatever, but what college does is expose you to the academics in the profession and can give you recognised qualifications that can take you further on in life.
You obviously have a capacity for learning, and the question you should ask yourself is am I going to be satisfied with your current level of attainment in ten years time?
College gives you a chance to be better than you are and is not for NOW, but is what you want and where to be in the future. Paper qualification may not seem like much, but without them you have nothing to show employers.
It may even be YOU could have the opportunity to become one of the academics who shape the future of the industry, but without the right paperwork that chance may never happen.

**NullPointer** · 10-07-2011, 07:28 AM

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However the thing about school and college courses on development and programming is that they are several years behind the "sharp edge" simply because it takes that long for the education authorities that long to decide what text books to use and have the school curriculum written up.

I think that depends on where you go. Some universities are just teaching universities. Others are research universities. The difference is that professors at a research university are actively working in their respective fields. The trade off being some of those professors or more interested in their research than they are in teaching.

Moreover, when it comes to programming a lot of the concepts you learn will be relevant for much longer than the language you are coding in.

**Physicsguy** · 10-07-2011, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NullPointer

General ed is going to be a component of any degree no matter what you major in. I ended up taking courses in philosophy, political science, writing, physics, and a whole lot of math. If you go to a four year university you just have to accept it and try to take courses that match you interests.

True. My math marks aren't turning out like I'd like them to. I'm getting 80's in English, and 90's in my computer courses, and 40s in math. Ouch. My average drops quite a bit that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NullPointer

Any program that spends a significant amount of time teaching you HTML or CSS is probably a waste of money. One thing I liked (maybe not so much at the time) about my major was that we didn't spend a whole lot of time on the basics. Only one course I ever took was really aimed at teaching a particular programming language. If you took a course that involved a language you didn't know you had to learn it on the fly.

A guy once came into my class from a college based near me. He was talking about AJAX and ASP, and stuff like that, and we had a really cool conversation talking about coding and websites and the like. I think he mentioned something about not worrying about learning HTML and CSS, because it's easy and not worth the time and money. He also said that if it wasn't for W3Schools, he would be a drop-out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NullPointer

My school didn't offer a major specifically in web development. However, in my opinion you can learn everything you need for web development with a degree in CS. The catch is that the degree is fairly general. You'll learn programming techniques, algorithm design, data structures, software engineering (a web app isn't all that different from any other piece of software). You'll also have to learn less related things like AI, digital logic, networks, OS principals, etc. Keep in mind that seemingly unrelated courses have a way of teaching you things that end up being useful.

That sounds fantastic, because one of the web development courses that had what I thought was worth learning needed a degree to get in (either that or work experience). Learning general stuff about the general topic you're interested will help build that pyramid of knowledge that goes from generic info to very specific info.

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