General Discussions

**Republikin** · 05-18-2007, 12:34 PM

I had to take a critical thinking course in college however, should this type of thought be taught in US based High Schools to curb the sheer amount of lemmings in this country?

Every time I see a post about how much someone hates Microsoft or how they can't stand George Bush because he speaks with a form of souther slang, etc. I can't help but imagine that a good course in critical thinking would at least help these poor idiots form a valid argument rather then just repeat some other idiots prepared diatribe.

Remember, because is never a good enough answer to any situation. As well, lways try to think of both sides of an argument before forming an opinion.

**ADAM Web Design** · 05-18-2007, 03:33 PM

The irony of a critical thinking course is that it often encourages a new breed of lemmings who all think exactly as they were taught to in the critical thinking course.

Some people simply cannot think for themselves, no matter how much we try to teach them. They get advice from others and parrot it as if they spent years thinking of it themselves, and then they wonder why the rest of the world thinks they're idiots (other than the other parrots saying the same thing.)

By the way, you forgot SEO spammers in your list of ad nauseam diatribes. "I'm gonna listen to John Scott cuz he makes money and u don't."

**nnh1254** · 05-18-2007, 04:26 PM

Maybe as a part of the social studies curriculum, but the idea of having a required course to teach people how to think is kind of disturbing in some ways.

**Republikin** · 05-18-2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

The irony of a critical thinking course is that it often encourages a new breed of lemmings who all think exactly as they were taught to in the critical thinking course.

Touche however, as you pointed out, those types of people won't learn anyways so that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to reach those who will.

Quote:

By the way, you forgot SEO spammers in your list of ad nauseam diatribes. "I'm gonna listen to John Scott cuz he makes money and u don't."

Your right ofcourse, we could create a whole list of idiots, that would be a fun thread eh.

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Maybe as a part of the social studies curriculum, but the idea of having a required course to teach people how to think is kind of disturbing in some ways.

What is so disturbing about it? Have you ever taken a critical thinking course?

I personaly think there is a large segment of our population that needs to be taught how to think. There is someone very close to me, who I will not name at risk of losing some precious things..., that is like this. She will usually just agree with me however, when she tries to formulate her own opinion she is so anxious to get to the conclusion that she foregos any critical thought or reason to get there. The result is usually a very week argument with very little basis in reality. Now this is not to say she is stupid since I do believe a course in critical thinking could help her immensly with this problem; so not stupid, just ignorant.

**ADAM Web Design** · 05-18-2007, 05:55 PM

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There is someone very close to me, who I will not name at risk of losing some precious things...,

Good call. Never burn a woman that gives you what every man wants.

**ForrestCroce** · 05-20-2007, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republikin

Every time I see a post about how much someone hates Microsoft or how they can't stand George Bush because he speaks with a form of souther slang, etc. I can't help but imagine that a good course in critical thinking would at least help these poor idiots form a valid argument rather then just repeat some other idiots prepared diatribe.

With respect, I can give several reasons why I don't like Bush that have nothing to do with his accent, or him as a person, simply having to do with his policies. I think you would agree with some of them, and I have plenty of complains about Michael Moore to go along. I won't go into any of them here, though, as this really isn't the place.

But we fall into patterns of thought ... we give our full attention to unique situations, but make day-to-day choices almost on autopilot. And we can rely on logical traps to make routine decisions. A lot of marketing depends on it. Whether you want to call it critical thinking, logic, philosophy, or something else, it's a subject that would benefit a lot of people. Although some of the people who are interested will figure things out on their own if they're not taught formally; I'm a good example of that.

I'm reading a book on graphs, how to use them most effectively to communicate, how we respond to them innately, what our unwritten expectations are, and so on. There's a chapter about how to lie with graphs, because most of us read at least one graph every day to get info from, and we should be aware of the ways they can be used to misrepresent things. The same is true with most aspects of life.

**Republikin** · 05-20-2007, 11:09 AM

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With respect, I can give several reasons why I don't like Bush that have nothing to do with his accent, or him as a person, simply having to do with his policies. I think you would agree with some of them, and I have plenty of complains about Michael Moore to go along. I won't go into any of them here, though, as this really isn't the place.

I wasn't trying to imply that there are no valid arguments against Bush. He just came to mind as he is a well known public figure and is also the subject of plenty of attacks that make little sense.

**stOx** · 05-20-2007, 01:22 PM

I think critical thinking courses should be mandatory every time i see a post by a Microsoft user or Bush supporter.

I guess "critical thinking" is something that should be done by anyone who disagrees with us

**Republikin** · 05-20-2007, 03:12 PM

Ok, my choice of examples aside I think the point still stands. What I meant was no matter what ones political ideology (or position on anything for that matter) we are all capable of fallacious arguments however, critical thinking is a means to curb that.

**seolman** · 05-20-2007, 03:30 PM

Recently Chris posted a great overview of why programmers should'nt be involved in artistic endeavors (except in rare occasions) and creative (i.e. artsy fartsys) shouldn't try to play around with code.

In my experience working in both graphics and programming - these two personality types tend to clash (sometimes departmentally

). It;'s when both sides gain an understanding and appreciation of what the other side contributes that great results happen.

Critical thinking may help some, but understanding various personality types (we could use the word cultures) and value systems may yield a better outcome.

**ForrestCroce** · 05-20-2007, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republikin

Ok, my choice of examples aside I think the point still stands. What I meant was no matter what ones political ideology (or position on anything for that matter) we are all capable of fallacious arguments however, critical thinking is a means to curb that.

There are great arguments for and against anyone who's ever occupied the White House. I have some very good reasons to dislike the current president, but I also know a lot of people who can't stand him, and can't articulate why, mention his accent if pressed. Actually, it wasn't a bad example at all, maybe a contentious one, but I got the point.

**ADAM Web Design** · 05-20-2007, 04:12 PM

You mean like when Bush refers to Canada as "our largest neighbour to the North?" or says things like "the French don't even have a word for entrepreneur?"

Someone should put him on like a 7-second delay so that he avoids saying ridiculous things.

**Republikin** · 05-20-2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seolman

Recently Chris posted a great overview of why programmers should'nt be involved in artistic endeavors (except in rare occasions) and creative (i.e. artsy fartsys) shouldn't try to play around with code.

In my experience working in both graphics and programming - these two personality types tend to clash (sometimes departmentally

). It;'s when both sides gain an understanding and appreciation of what the other side contributes that great results happen.

Critical thinking may help some, but understanding various personality types (we could use the word cultures) and value systems may yield a better outcome.

I think critical thought would lead to a better understanding and appreciation for other cultures.

Furthermore, there is a loose dependence between the arts and the sciences. For instance, much of what we know about logic comes from philosophy and without logic we couldn't have technological advances, such as those which come from programming.

**Learning Newbie** · 05-20-2007, 06:50 PM

I hope you didn't mean to imply that because some people hate Bush for what might be petty reasons ( "I'm the decider," no, "I'm the commander guy." ) everybody can't stand him for bad reasons and serious ones don't exist. Because that would be a text-book case of why I agree with you that critical thinking is an important skill for everybody to learn.

And with the new direction this thread seems to be taking, I notice you post in the coding forums as much as anywhere else. It's pretty appropriate that we think of programming in terms of a UI layer and a logic layer. Logic is a skill demanded of all programmers, or at least a slice of logical, critical thought. That might not translate into coders being better at thinking rationally than the general public, but it ought to.

**Republikin** · 05-20-2007, 08:09 PM

Quote:

I hope you didn't mean to imply that because some people hate Bush for what might be petty reasons ( "I'm the decider," no, "I'm the commander guy." ) everybody can't stand him for bad reasons and serious ones don't exist. Because that would be a text-book case of why I agree with you that critical thinking is an important skill for everybody to learn.

Actually, the fact that you are drawing that conclusion from what I said is exactly why critical thinking should be taught at a young age.

People, please keep in mind that this thread is not about Bush or programming. I could have just as easily replaced Bush's name with Clint Eastwood and the essence of my point would still be intact. However, one good thing has come out of my using Bush as an example; it has proven my point that some people will attack ad hominem thus creating fallacious arguments, and I'm guessing not even aware of their doing this.

**stOx** · 05-20-2007, 08:27 PM

I think it's because your second paragraph started with "Every time I see a post about..." it made people assume that your gripe was actually with the point these "idiots" were making rather than thier ability to argue that point.

It sounded a bit like you were saying If you don't like microsoft or bush you are an undereducated fool.

**ADAM Web Design** · 05-21-2007, 02:00 AM

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If you don't like microsoft or bush you are an undereducated fool.

Isn't the opposite supposed to be true here?

**woosh** · 05-21-2007, 04:59 AM

Veering away from the Bush politics lol, we had a course we could take the year before we left high school called design technology, it was based on inventing things to put it bluntly and you didn't have to be an extra special creative arty type but someone who enjoyed thinking outside the square. Subjects like that could well be implemented in the main curriculum so it's accessible to all not a specific course that may scare some off because it looks too intellectual for them. We had to invent things for everyday life and write a design brief, mock up the idea and also explain how we went about the process. It basically taught us to think outside the square. We also looked at social things and we had another course called Liberal Studies which approached topics such as religion, politics, and social problems, it was an awesome course and we had some very heated discussions but it was very eye opening to see how people think and what a mass group can do to sway opinions. In saying that though we hit a few major problems because our teacher was a devout Christian so some of the topics covered he was very opposed to, kinda killed the freedom of speech and thought.

**Learning Newbie** · 05-21-2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republikin

I could have just as easily replaced Bush's name with Clint Eastwood and the essence of my point would still be intact.

It would be rude of me not to acknowledge the truth here. You're right. This is a side point about Bush, but because you implied a connection between lemmings and people who don't like Mr Bush because of his Southern or Texan accent, I think it's an important side point. And you seem to agree:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republikin

However, one good thing has come out of my using Bush as an example; it has proven my point that some people will attack ad hominem thus creating fallacious arguments, and I'm guessing not even aware of their doing this.

As a man who advocates Critical Thinking, how can you describe quoting the President of the United States as an ad hominem attack? One of us doesn't seem to understand the meaning of those two words, and I'll admit it could be me. But I think a personal attack would be making a big deal over the fact that Laura Bush killed her boyfriend as a teen. Quoting the man's exact words isn't personal, it's on point and relevant, especially when he's used as an example of the height of what critical thinking means. This is a man who lost Osama bin Laden and is losing the war in Afghanistan, has us bogged down going into our fifth year in a civil war we managed to provoke in Iraq. Until six months ago we've been pushed the idea that there are two sides to the global warming argument (a scientific one, and a political one) and then suddenly, inexplicably, "global climate change" is real and important enough to make the State of the Union? There's a scene in the book 1984 where the empire our narrator's country is at war with changes. People are in the middle of a rally against one enemy, when suddenly all the posters come down and the enemy changes.

I'm sorry to increase the political volume here, but it would be wrong of me to not address what seems like the opposite of critical thinking here. I'll return the microphone and the soapbox now.

**Republikin** · 05-22-2007, 05:07 PM

Ad Hominem

Your partially right that it is a personal attack however, your missing the key element of what an ad hominem attack is, it is also failing to address the argument. An example of this might be, Jacks argument is wrong because he was convicted of a crime. Even if the statement is true, it is still a fallacious argument.

You should read through that list of fallacious arguments (link). You will probably recognize a few of them as you reflect on this thread. Namely, appeal to widespread belief (a.k.a. bandwagon), argument by repetition, argument by selective observation, argument by selective reading, red hearing, etc.

Your also wrong to think that Bush was used as an example of what the height of critical thinking means. He was used in an example of a fallacious argument. My thread has been hijacked because of (I'm assuming) what people feel my personal beliefs must be from my first statement (and most probably from my choice of handle).

Now, I'm going to try to get this thread back on track just once more by rewording my original examples in a way which shows clear connection to the type of fallacious argument I am was trying to point out.

For example: Bush must be stupid because he as a southern accent. (Dismissal By Differentness, which is a form of ad hominem attack).

For example: Microsoft is evil because it is rich. (Reductio Ad Absurdum and in my opinion most times a Pious Fraud.)

Now, with that aside, could teaching critical thinking in High School lead to less fallacious arguments in everyday life?