General Discussions

**tonya** · 06-05-2007, 07:02 PM

Web Design & Web Master qualifications?

CIW? worth the paper they are printed on?

Ok most of what I have read & researched agrees with the concept that the best qualification for either a web designer, web master or web programmer is the university of life. Experience counts for a lot! On this I am in total agreement.

However - how to gain those key skills that most of the job advisors who said the above is another question. There is no doubt that everyone has to start somewhere and although practice and experience counts for a lot at the very start a training course / tutorial / guide or some method of teaching & learning aid of some description is required.

Here comes the question. A customer of mine wants a member of their staff to learn the key skills to manage their internal website and has figured sending their employee on some courses is a good idea. In fact they have suggested going one step further and to make the employee feel good plus fulfill company policy of qualifying staff for their roles is willing to pay for said employee to go on courses and achieve some sort of recognition for learning those skills by gaining a qualifiaction.

They have asked my advice on what sort of qualification. The only options i can see are a microsoft route or a-n-other eg something like the CIW.

My own thinking is that it is a good idea. It shows that basic skills have been learnt and is a good starting point for a skill set that can be built up with hands on experience. The staff member gets the piecees of paper to record achievement and everyone is happy.

I am tempted to recommend the CIW route as it appears to cover a broad range of internet skills, programming skills (both client & server) and some administration without being too Microsoft orientated. Or should they go for single courses in basic skills, software etc?

Does anyone have any thoughts ???

**dvduval** · 06-05-2007, 09:52 PM

I didn't learn hardly anything about the internet or computers in school. I just become very interested in it and spent time every day. Sometimes I feel people need to genuinely enjoy working on the internet to do well. The school is good, but they have to really like what they are doing. People like this usually spend a lot of time self learning on the computer. After all, the internet itself is a great "teach yourself" tool.

**derjavina** · 06-06-2007, 10:04 AM

Dvduval, you say you have no qualifications, but you don't mention where this has got you...

**tripy** · 06-06-2007, 10:35 AM

Well, for my personnal experience, experiance and passion counted a lot more than certification.
But it seems to me that as more formations and certifications are becoming available, the more they are looked upon.
If you have the chance to get in touch with peoples that lived the "computing revolution" (think 70's and 80's) then you have a chance, as I think most of them have kept the hentusiastic view on their job.

But with new managers, who don't know much of computing but are looking for university degrees, only experience in similar enterprises and certifications will be counting. And even there, if you are in the last run with somehone with certifications, he will be preferred to you, in most of the cases.

I live in Switzerland.
Here, we have 2 different way of getting active. 1 is the classical university, master / bachelor, doctor degrees.
The other one is know as "apprentissage" (don't know how to say it in English...)
Basically, you work in an enterprise, with the other employees, but you have 1 or 2 days a week where you go to school to follow courses in relation with the job you are doing, and there are exams at the end that gives you a certificate.

Long story made short, I have now an electrician certificate, an computer technician certificate, and after having worked in a small web agencie as a php developer, I work now in a university, as an oracle db progamer.
I won't have this post now if I didn't used postgresSql as a web developper, as his architecture is close to oracle.

So, yes, experience is good, but I think the diplomas are more and more important to get the first doors opened...
Sadly...

**angele803** · 06-06-2007, 10:35 AM

I dont think many universities are up to date on web design. At least here in the US. It is still so new that most colleges just have a few classes about web design. I took one last semester and it was a joke. We learned a little about photoshop, and then we put a basic website together using tables.
I have taken a few web classes (didn't learn a lot from them), have read a lot of books, and most importantly, have been practicing. I think experience is the best qualification for web designers.
I am interested to see what others have to offer on this topic!

**tonya** · 05:53 PM

Thanks guys for your comments so far.

I completely agree with the viewpoint that experience is a very key thing.

As is enthusiasm. DVDuval is quite right those that grew up in the computer generation unlike us old (80's crew - god am I really that old) are likely to have studied IT at school and if keen will spend time at home learning and getting to grips with any subject/ software / skill area they are interested in.

I am however really glad that 'tripy' pointed out that employers do look for qualifications and if it comes to it qualifications could give you the edge over a non qualified competitor for a job. (maybe)

In this case though this is a candidate who has already left school and does not have a degree or wish to go back to university but has an employer who is willing to pay for training and as prove of training in a new skill help their staff member achieve qualifications. I think this is an AMAZING thing for an employer to do. It aught to be common place but it isnt. All too often employees are left to eran on the job and then although gaining experience have no formal qualifications to prove they have learnt or use the skills they say they have or use on their CV.

My real queries are :

Do people think that is a good thing?
If you had the chance to support your homegrown or work taught skills with a qualification (paid for by work & achieved in work time) wouldn't you jump at it?
If you had that chance as a web programmer / designer / master what qualification would you look at?
Have you heard of CIW certification and what do you think?

Tonya

btw - my own skills were a combination of self taught & formal training courses. Since I am an IT trainer there is nothing quite like having to teach a new class a skill (Javascript) to get you up to speed yourself and its amazing how much the trainer can learn he he. Then of course I now have 15 years of experience in both teaching and development / project work etc.

Reason for asking the question - In this case I act as a consulant for the employer and have been asked if I think that the staff would merit from working towards a qualification while learning new skills or simply attending the courses and getting some sort of attendance certificate. The employer is leaning heavily towards wanting staff to get a qualification so my next job is wto work out what sort of qualification.

keep your comments rolling in !

**tripy** · 06-06-2007, 06:20 PM

1)
If that would be a good thing to let employees get certifications ?
Depends of the point of view, imo.

From an employee pov, that would be terrific. I'd love too.
I've looked for years for that, but never found it in any enterprise I worked for.
From the employer pov, that's a bit of a bargain, though.
Imagine him training his staff, and the staff leaving a couple of months later for a more lucrative position.
The money the employer put on certifications (and god know they may be expensive... I think SAP here...), is money he cannot give in wages.

I can understand why they would be careful about that idea.
Now, it's all a question of trust and personal relationship.
As I stated, I'm now working as an oracle programmer.
That's a huge step from a PHP web developer, and even just for that, I'm thankful for my boss, as it will open many doors more easily in the future.

There are almost no open places as web developer, and wen they are, it's jsp or .net
Forget about PHP in the corporate world.
Sure, you can found small structure that use it, but when you reaches 33, have kids and a family, the 18 hours per day for a miserable wages are not much for you anymore.
You tend to let them for the younger peoples.
I know I do.

I hesited taking PHP certifications, thought that if I intended to go freelance, they would be a plus.
And I firmly believe it would, but Switzerland is way too expensive to live on web freelancing alone. I'd need to work to about 50$/hours 10 hours per days to cover my charges (a family costs money... Sad but true), and when you are competing with India or west Europa country freelancers, there is no chances for those price to be accepted.

2)
If I would ? Almost sure I'd do. I would be balancing the domain they would fund the formation, how it would be appealing on the jobs market place.
But for that, I'd be ready to ask for less wages, and work more, **** yes !
I tried to follow an online university, 2 years ago, but a newly born baby, an near bankruptcy enterprise and struggling with freelancing reduced my available time to nearly 0.
So I left that degree over. I kinda regret it, but I have proofs every day that I can work as well as peoples that have them, and be as competent as they are.
Heck, I even had noline courses with teachers my collegues had. :-)

3)
As a developper, I'd look at the regional / national IT market place, and look at what is most wanted.
Here, there is a non-stop research for SAP consultant, and if I had the money, I would have got one of those certifications.
Otherwise, C++ is very searched now, and Java too.
As a web developper, nad mostly PHP, I'd get teh zend certification. In Europe at least, there are not that many peoples that have it, and it have a fairly good reputation of being "real",
a contrario from Microsoft MSDN who are believed to be given almost like candy in a fair...

4)
Nope, never heard of it.
But being located in Europe may be the reason...

**tonya** · 06-06-2007, 07:14 PM

trupy - thanks for your reply.

Your comments were really helpful. I need to look back at the CIW & see if PHP is the server end programming they are looking at.

I believe there si an agreement with employees that if training courses are undertaken like this that they either have to stay with the company for a set period of time or pay the cost of their training. The department that is in question have a specific requirement for a web developer / master as they need someone to look after their company intranet (its quite a big company so its a good prospect). There is no question of me being able to steer skills into any other areas as SAP or Oracle are not a skill that dept require.

I think th ekey here is that the company have a gov regulation to fulfill about gaining qualifications for staffing levels. I also think they have a specific need for a set of skills to be reached & hence can kill two birds with one stone.

The question is I guess wether to join the candy store (love that phrase) of Microsoft or offer an alternative that is more giving and can incorporate other areas of technology.

In the UK the market for in house IT skilled people who can run intranet sites, or internet sites and program & develop web based sites is still very much a requirement. I guess I am coming slowly to the conclusion through these discussions (which have helped me formalise my thought) that the type of qualification is irrelevent next to this particular employer being able to tick the boxes & still have a working skilled member of staff.

I guess in an office situation it is like an accountant taking accoutancy courses when they have worked in accounts already for years and are not actually moving jobs but their boss wants to see if they know all the skills they could know. Or an employer paying for all their secretaries to do formal Microsoft Word MOUS courses with exams or the ECDL to boost their knowledge but also give them a certificate for their HR portfolio & the users CV.

Very similar to you deciding to do an online UNI course to boost your knowledge.

BTW - I am a mother to a 14 month old so I know all about how much time can be taken up both working & being a parent to little ones & trying to study. In my spare time (do I actually have any) I am studing an Open University degree in Environmental Sciences / Oceanography - I am in my 3rd year of a honors degree course with a Masters to finish after that ! He he

Yup life can be busy !

Thanks for your input

**tripy** · 06-06-2007, 07:29 PM

Quote:

BTW - I am a mother to a 14 month old so I know all about how much time can be taken up both working & being a parent to little ones & trying to study. In my spare time (do I actually have any) I am studing an Open University degree in Environmental Sciences / Oceanography - I am in my 3rd year of a honors degree course with a Masters to finish after that ! He he

I can only say "chapeau bas..."
You beat me over a long way here.
I'm a bit to sleepy now to really grasp all that you've written, and I've got a meeting in a few hours, so I'll answer you tomorrow.

In the mean time, have a good night.
Tripy.

**tonya** · 02:56 PM

Low hat ? If it wasn't for the explanation on the translation site that it meant - Congratulatiosn I would have wondered what you meant. LOL

Yup just call me superMom !!! LOL