General Discussions

**ForrestCroce** · 07-08-2007, 01:14 AM

I asked this same question on two photography sites, so I won't ask about how to select a mat cutter here. But some of the people here are brilliant, especially when it comes to business, and I think I'll get some very helpful advice here that I won't on the photo forums. Also, I think Steve Bradley will get a kick out of the offline social angle.

I had a bunch of prints in the car when I stopped for coffee this morning. I love espresso. I generally go to local cafes, but sometimes to the Starbucks in my neighborhood. I used to go there every day when I had a different job and walked to work. The baristas are very friendly, and in a genuine way. We aren't friends, but get along pretty well, they all remember my name, that I like iced Americanos, ask about how the new job is going and if I've been on any trails lately. So I asked them if corporate tells them what photos they're going to have on the walls, and it's up to the store's manager. So I showed the barista some of my prints, and she was floored. Asked for my number, promised to set up a meeting as soon as the new manager takes over in two weeks, and to get me one with the old mgr if I think that would help.

The full-time pro photographers will chastise me for not renting the prints to Starbucks, since they get to decorate their store with my stuff. I think the exposure alone will be worth getting a mat cutter and learning to use it. And the photos will be on sale, for a lot more than I'd be able to charge for them. Ironically, I don't sell prints, the overhead is too much, I use a high grade lab, have them mailed to me, and inspect them closely before I'll let the client see them. My photos reflect on me. So I'm hoping sane people can help me figure out how to maximize this opportunity?

Also, how do I choose which photos to use? This is on the northern edge of downtown Seattle, so should I try to focus on city shots and local wonders, like Mt Ranier, the Olympics or San Juans? People can take their own photos of these places, but ... I really don't want to sound like a prick for saying this, but the photos people take, tourists and locals alike, there are only a small handful that are on my level. Not all of them, but a lot. I'm not the best in the world, but I have a distinct style, and it's one of my strengths. So do I bet on that and hope photos of things people have seen themselves many times in a new light will help my sales? Stuff from the Rockies, California, maybe the desert, should I include that?

There are the photos the barista seemed to like most:

http://forrestcroce.com/Photos/Downt...ootBridge.html
http://forrestcroce.com/Photos/Waiti...Fireworks.html
http://forrestcroce.com/Photos/StreamInBigBasin.html
http://forrestcroce.com/Photos/Tioga...ringStorm.html

She also loved some of my portraits, so I'll probably ask her to model for me next time I see her. But the model release I wrote up gives me the right to use images for self promotion and for discussion to improve my knowledge, technique, and business, so I can't sell them ... and really don't want to sell portraits to people who've never met the subject.

What about this one, from North Vancouver ( our sister city in Canada, about a 3 hour drive )?

Finally, how much should I charge? I don't know what the mat cutter and board will cost, but having mats cut individually would be a lot more.

Anyway, I'll be grateful for any advice people can give me.

**ADAM Web Design** · 07-08-2007, 03:07 PM

As far as what to choose, I'd suggest "as many as possible". Give your barista as many prints to choose from as she can stand and let her pick and choose the ones she wants. You never know what other people will want or like...it's commercial art, right?

Having said that, I'm thinking that the local scenery would be your best bet, since it's being put up in a local Starbucks.

Now...as far as what to charge, that's one of those questions I never like to answer, especially outside of the web design realm, because I learned a long time ago that the value of something is in what someone is willing to pay for it. What do similar photographs sell for? (I seriously don't know). Base your pricing off of that.

**vangogh** · 06:01 PM

I echo what Adam said. But would you happen to believe that not too long ago I worked as a picture framer and actually know quite a bit about mats and mat cutting? I framed pictures for about 3 years. If the money was better I'd still be doing it.

If you do get a mat cutter don't go cheap. You can find some for under $25 that are hand held and will convince you they work fine against something like a t-square. They won't Not unless you have a lot of practice.

Get one that you have to mount to a table. Or at least one that needs the table to rest on. Bigger is going to be better too. It's easy to convince yourself that won't need to cut a mat all that big so you can save a few dollars. You will cut mats that big.

If I'm remembering correctly Logan was a good name in mat cutters.

You can charge more for a picture that's been matted. Take an 8x12 image by itself an unless people know who you are they may not want to buy it. Take that same 8x12 image, add a mat, and make the overall dimensions 16x20. Stick that matted photo in a bin at any gift store and people will pay $50 - $75 at a minimum. I've seen things selling much higher too.

A full sized sheet of mat board (32x40 I think) will cost you under $10 and you'll get 4 16x20 mats out of it. A little practice and it will take you less than a minute to cut the mat. So for about $2 you can probably add $50 to the price of an image.

It also helps to have some foam core backing which is about the same price as the mat board.

I'm leaving out a few things and in the end you'll have to spend a little more since there are a few other odds and ends that you'll want. But you will be able to sell a photo for more that's been matted.

As for which images to sell try as many as you can. People have different tastes. Look around at the ones that are already being sold by other photographers. Chances are that's what's popular.

Mat a few samples and bring them to some of the local stores and see which ones they show interest in and then print up a bunch of that photo.

One of the frame shops I worked in my boss found a print of a composite satellite image of the earth at night. It was a mostly blue/black print and it showed the concentration of lights at night across the planet. It was a nice print, but he found the right mat and frame combo for it and he could sell them almost as fast as he could frame them.

It's a little sad, but many people will buy your matted (and framed?) images not because of the image, but because the mat and frame color match their living room furniture.

The point is that people will pay more for a matted image than they will for the image.

And display your work in every coffee shop that will let you. The more people start seeing your name the more likely they will later want to buy your images.

**seolman** · 07-08-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

...So I'm hoping sane people can help me figure out how to maximize this opportunity?

Despite failing the pre-requisite for this thread I'm going to answer anyway. I was doing some studio work in Australia (we're talking music here now and ancient history). I mentioned to the studio engineer that I wish my guitar playing was as good as 'so and so's' and he said something that has stuck with me for years: "it is, to the audience that likes your style". That gave me so much confidence I was able to continue developing my style and now I like how I play.

Adam has it right - show as much of your work as you can and let them choose. There have been so many times we have submitted multiple designs to clients and the ones I thought nobody would pick, the client loved

Quality is in the eye of the customer so let them decide. Eventually, just like any artist, you will build up a clientele who like your style. They will become your repeat customers.

**vangogh** · 07-08-2007, 06:54 PM

Our resident guitar playing sponge has some good advice. Forrest show everything you have. Pick as many to show as you think they'll look at. Some people will want to see cityscapes and some will want landscapes. Some will want portraits and some will want them all. You never know so show off as many of your styles as you can.

In fact if it's just for one showing at the coffee shop I'd show off one or two pieces from each of the different categories. All your photography is good. No one's going to look at it and think something bad about it. If you can show them a wider range of images though you'll have more chance of someone finding one they really like.

**ADAM Web Design** · 07-08-2007, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Our resident guitar playing sponge has some good advice. Forrest show everything you have. Pick as many to show as you think they'll look at. Some people will want to see cityscapes and some will want landscapes. Some will want portraits and some will want them all. You never know so show off as many of your styles as you can.

A-HEEEEEEEEM! That bastard Dave copies my advice and gets all the credit.

**vangogh** · 07-08-2007, 09:47 PM

I give you enough credit already. Beside if I credited you I couldn't have said 'guitar playing sponge'

How often do you get to say that?

Ok I give Adam said it first.

**ADAM Web Design** · 07-08-2007, 11:02 PM

You know, that's true. How many guitar playing sponges are there?

**ForrestCroce** · 07-09-2007, 12:12 AM

I tried to teach a pitbull in the neighborhood to play the bass part to "Let the good times roll," but he wasn't any good.

There's been a lot of good advice in here, although I'm still wondering. I want to leave a stack of 4 or 5 prints behind in the meantime for the employees to look at and think about. Not sure if that'll actually work ... and asking the barista to model for some portraits doesn't sound wise. I don't think I can legally show any of the portraits except the woman and nature one, but it sounds like variety is the way to go here.

The lady said I can frame, mat, or just nail the paper to the wall, it's up to me. What they have now are about 25 matted but not framed photos, mostly of people with coffee beans in their hands. A few not very good landscapes. I don't have stock like photos to promote a general type of product, but I think the passionate ones I've got have enough style to at least give people a good impression of my work, if not sell any.

If I mat but don't frame the prints, that adds a lot of value from the consumer's POV, because it can cost $20+ to have a custom mat cut. But that leaves them to buy a frame that matches their couch, dog, hat, or whatever. Best compromise all around.

I'm thinking to print 8x12s, but I do enjoy making big landscape prints, can do about 16x24 " with my current setup. I've actually sold a 20x30 ", which the client loved, but I felt was a little unsharp at arm's length. Anyway, I need a big one, this is part of the reason I don't have a printer.

Finally, while I've asked on DPR, some of the people there see me as a symbol of the new breed of competition. Mastery of the technical stuff is less elitist, so now people are starting to compete on artistic skill instead of being able to figure out secrets of predictive autofocus. I will get some good advice there, but I'll also get angry diatribes from people saying I should put aside my talent and passion for the good of their job security. I'm hoping I'll get better advice here because already some of the more wise people are giving answers, and also because there's no weird conflict of interest.

I'm also getting ready to furnish my doctor's office with a similar deal, free, I'll get a majority of anything she sells, and an exhibition night. The photo snobs told me I'm hurting the entire industry by not making her pay rent for the ones she doesn't sell, but my doctor saw me for free when I broke my arm and didn't have insurance. I'm not going to charge either place rent for the photos, but in that case I have a moral debt.

Anyway, am I doing the right thing to advance my photographic career? I'm going to print up a couple hundred business cards with my URL and email, and stack 25 or so by each print at both places. I'm not specifically trying to sell anything, but I feel like I have a calling, and every day I spend in an office instead of in the mountains with a camera and tripod, I'm not making the best use of my time.

**seolman** · 07-09-2007, 04:39 PM

If you need shots of people with coffee beans in their hands...Costa Rica is a great place for this

Hey Adam...the only thing I'm plagiarizing is your Avatar from time to time...

**colbyt** · 07-09-2007, 05:41 PM

Gosh it is hard to compete with the excellent advice above.

Let me reafirm what Vangogh said, Buy a quality mat cutter. Cheap tools make cheap results.

I also agree to post as many as you can. Beauty is also in the eye of the beholder. You might have a contest, a voting poll with a print for the prize. A random name drawn from all the entries. This should give you a feel for what market segment likes. If you stucture it right you might also get a lot of names you can use for something later.

**ADAM Web Design** · 07-09-2007, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Finally, while I've asked on DPR, some of the people there see me as a symbol of the new breed of competition. Mastery of the technical stuff is less elitist, so now people are starting to compete on artistic skill instead of being able to figure out secrets of predictive autofocus. I will get some good advice there, but I'll also get angry diatribes from people saying I should put aside my talent and passion for the good of their job security. I'm hoping I'll get better advice here because already some of the more wise people are giving answers, and also because there's no weird conflict of interest.

To hell with people like that, seriously. Let them rot. If people can't give quality advice about their chosen field and help others, then they really aren't good enough at their chosen field and shouldn't be competing in the first place.

Other than that, i'm with you as far as advancing your career. You've got what most web designers would kill for...a client that could potentially put you on the map. I say run with it as far as you possibly can.

**vangogh** · 07-09-2007, 07:07 PM

Forrest one thing you might want to consider is actually framing the images that will be on display. I think selling them matted only (with the foam core backing) is the way to. But why not frame the ones that will hang on the wall somewhere. You can get an simple aluminum frame inexpensively and always charge more if someone wants to buy the display piece. Think of how much more it will stand out though to have the only images under glass. People might easily wonder to themselves why only a few select photos were deemed important enough to place under glass.

Selling them in bulk is probably best to do matted only. It's sad, but some people are really more concerned with the frame matching their furniture than what they think of the image.

People used to come in with furniture cushions so they could match the frames. One lady once brought in actual stone from her fireplace to match colors. A lot of people will actually end up rematting your images, but the presentation helps to sell them.

When you display the images at Starbucks will you be able to add a small bio below the hanging picture. Maybe something that like:

Photographer: Forrest Croce
Photograph: Name of photo
More Images like this are available at: Your contact info.

An easy way to display the bio is to take a small piece of foam core and mount a matt on top. Something very small 2X4 sort of thing. Then use a pen and write out the info on the matboard. Pretty simple and maybe something to get a few people to contact you to see more.

**ForrestCroce** · 07-10-2007, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

You've got what most web designers would kill for...a client that could potentially put you on the map. I say run with it as far as you possibly can.

There's been a lot of great advice so far, and I'd like to explore more of it in detail ... today is zero bug balance at work, though, I'm home checking on my cat briefly and pulling my hair out from being too busy to think.

But unfortunately it's not as wonderful as I must have made it sound. It isn't the Starbucks Corp that's interested in my stuff; at this point, it's just one store, or branch, or location, or whatever they're called. On the other hand, it's within walking distance of the original Starbucks, so maybe the regional manager will step in one day and be impressed.

**vangogh** · 07-11-2007, 12:33 AM

Don't knock one store no matter which one it is. A lot of people are probably in that Starbucks each and every day, which means a lot of people will see your photographs.