General Discussions

**afahosting** · 07-25-2007, 12:58 PM

What Faith are you what do you believe??

Does religion play a big or small part in your life to me it plays such a huge part in my life not sure why it is so important but it is.

Do you get offended by people chatting about religion are you open about your religion what are your views on religion as a whole.

What do you think the meaning of life is lol??

Sorry about all the questions just am confused about a lot of things and would appreciate other peoples views on the subject.

Best wishes

~Rick~

**highanddry** · 07-25-2007, 04:30 PM

I lost religion before earlier than I can remember. My mom is still religious, but not in a creepy way. There is no room for organized religion in my life.

**Christopher** · 07-25-2007, 05:58 PM

I'm atheist. I'm 90% sure there is no "greater power". The missing percentage is because, of course, I can't really disprove the existence of god any more then I can disprove the existence of invisible unicorns. In fact I see little difference between the two. Please don't be offended by that comparison, that is not my intention. I only mean that I am as sure of the non-existence of "modern" deities than I am of the old Greek gods Zeus or Aphrodite.

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Do you get offended by people chatting about religion are you open about your religion what are your views on religion as a whole.

I don't mind if other people are religious. If it gives you something positive you can't find anywhere else, then I think that's great. I only get annoyed when peoples religious views actually do affect me. For example, the whole fiasco about creationism-vs-evolution in US education would annoy me no end if I lived there. I'm sure religious people would feel similarly if things were reversed. This feeling isn't limited to religion though; I would feel the same way if political or moral views affected my life in such a manner. But religion is somewhat of a special case in my mind because, to me, it's like basing decisions on something that is not true. Again, please don't be offended when I express my own personal beliefs this way.

Most of my relatives are Catholic. My father was raised Catholic, and his family is very religious. Growing up, my parents never really forced religion on us, something for which I am very grateful. My parents didn't exactly leave religion at the door. In fact, I still have memories of a prayer before bedtime with my mother -- I must've been 5! But we were not the kind of family to go to church or discuss the Bible. To this day my father holds to his beliefs (though not devoutly), and my sister is as certain as she can be that there is a god. My mother, the one person I ever remember sharing a prayer with, is the one person in my family who is not a theist. I count myself lucky to live in a place where atheism is accepted. I've heard, and experienced through the magic of the internet, that in other places around the world my atheism would bring no end of discrimination.

Amongst friends I am much more open about my views on religion. I have a lot to say, but experience has told me that people are easily offended when it comes to debates about religion. I don't know why that is. We can have a hot debate about the next prime minister or about which operating system is better but as soon as religion comes on the field it's like I can't say what I really want to. It's a nice treat when I can truely speak my mind when the topic comes up when I'm out with friends or with my family. Actually, just about every time my family is all together in one place, we have this discussion. Usually me and my mother "against" my father and sister.

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What do you think the meaning of life is lol??

It may seem to the uninformed theist that if I don't believe in god then I think life is meaningless. Nothing could be further from the truth. I like my life. A belief in a god or rewards in an afterlife are not prerequisites for cherishing my life. What is the meaning of life? I don't think there is precisely a meaning. To think there is a meaning is to think something made us for a purpose, which I do not. I choose to define my own meaning. To me, life is about doing what you enjoy, spending time with the people you love. The fact that I don't believe in god does not mean I love any less fierce than a religious person does, or that I care any less.

Sorry if I seem like I'm explaining more then answering, but it seems many theists really draw a parallel between "atheist" and "evil, non-caring demon".

**afahosting** · 07-25-2007, 06:58 PM

Hmmmmmmm but do you believe that when you are dead you are simply dead then because that just seems like wow just such a hard thing to think what would be the point in just living to die lol.

Oh and btw thanks for sharing your views with me both of you

~Rick~

**Christopher** · 07-25-2007, 07:48 PM

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Hmmmmmmm but do you believe that when you are dead you are simply dead then because that just seems like wow just such a hard thing to think what would be the point in just living to die lol.

There is nothing in my life that has lead me to believe in an afterlife. I base my conclusions on experiences, proof and through reasoned thought. This is precisely why I don't get along with faith.

Is there an afterlife? Probably not. I can't prove it nor disprove it. But just because I can't know for sure doesn't mean that it exists. I can't prove for sure that there aren't invisible unicorns, but I don't deduce that they must exist because I can't prove they don't.

"Living to die" is a bleak outlook on life. I don't think like that. It's like saying theres no point in reading a book because it'll end anyway. The time I am alive and what I do with it is worth it to me. Just because I won't be around later to remember how I lived doesn't make my life any less meaningful to me now.

**angele803** · 07-25-2007, 08:26 PM

I am a Christian. I am not a perfect Christian and I dont go to church every single sunday, but God is a big part of my life. I believe He helps guide my life and helps me get through the tough stuff.
I think I probably should be more open with my religion than I am, but I dont want people to feel like I am pressing anything on them, and I dont want to come across as a "fanatical" or extreme Christian. (I cant think of the right word, but basically, not a crazy Christian).
I have no idea what the meaning of life is. Im not sure that anyone really knows. Maybe it is a big test, or a learning experience. I dont know.
I always thought the same thing about people who dont believe in an afterlife afahosting. How can you go through life thinking that this is it and when you die, its all over. I think Chris came up with a good rebuttal, but I think I would feel totally empty and depressed if I didnt believe there was something more.

**ForrestCroce** · 07-26-2007, 12:28 AM

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Originally Posted by afahosting

Hmmmmmmm but do you believe that when you are dead you are simply dead then because that just seems like wow just such a hard thing to think what would be the point in just living to die lol.

I hope it doesn't all end at death, but I'm an agnostic/atheist, and I don't see any reason to believe in an afterlife. I'd really like to believe in one, because I enjoy living, but me not wanting life to end isn't a reason to believe the world works that way. Christopher put it very articulately; in the rest of life, we don't believe things are true only because we'd like them to be. I hope we all get more than our allotted years, but I'm going through mine focused on the present, on long-term goals, on friendships, and don't spend much time thinking about death.

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Originally Posted by angele803

I have no idea what the meaning of life is. Im not sure that anyone really knows. Maybe it is a big test, or a learning experience. I dont know.

You're right. None of us can be 100 % sure what the meaning of life is. That's what makes it such a difficult question.

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Originally Posted by angele803

How can you go through life thinking that this is it and when you die, its all over. I think Chris came up with a good rebuttal, but I think I would feel totally empty and depressed if I didnt believe there was something more.

I really don't know what happens after death, but I'm inclined to think basically nothing happens. That might be depressing if you let it be a big factor in your life, but if you focus on the positive, it's a wonderful world.

A friend of mine asked what goes through my mind when I shoot my beautiful landscape photos if I don't believe in a god. I never understood the question ... what I'm typically thinking at the time is what a beautiful place.

**highanddry** · 12:46 AM

I guess "agnositic" is one way to go, thats where I am. It simply means you don't know either way... and how could you? He who knows that he does not know is the wisest if you remember or have read ancient philosophy, Socrates that is.

**Christopher** · 01:18 AM

There is a limit to agnosticism. We can say we can't know for sure about a million different things. Can we know there are no invisible unicorns (sorry for coming back to this every time, but I feel its a good example)? Most of us would agree that it is extremely unlikely that invisible unicorns exist. But seeing as we can't exactly study their existence, we can never really know for sure. Bit it would be a far stretch to say you are agnostic about invisible unicorns.

What about old religions? Do you believe in the existence of Zeus and Aphrodite?

I'm not picking on you, I'm really curious as to how people separate these thoughts. The invisible unicorns are so preposterous that it seems natural to say you are an atheist in that regard. But how is an invisible unicorn any more preposterous then a god who made the universe, watches over us, answerers prayers and judges us? How are todays religions that are so widely accepted any different then those beliefs held by the ancient Greeks? We are all atheists of the dead religions, but the modern ones are somehow "more true".

**ForrestCroce** · 07-26-2007, 02:49 AM

That's really splitting hairs. The official scientific version of events takes some amount of faith to believe in, too. Not evolution, we see that happening with drug resistant bacteria, but the Big Bang idea that everything came out of nothing goes against everything we know about how the universe operates. A lot of people turn to religion as a more likely alternative.

To be an atheist is to put faith, the title of this thread, into the idea that any sort of god surely doesn't exist. I haven't seen any more reason to believe one doesn't than I have to suggest one does. The jury is still out on that one.

**Christopher** · 07-26-2007, 04:41 AM

I disagree. I'm not saying god surely doesn't exist. I do not base my conclusions on faith. I am saying that the odds of god existing are so small that I have no reason to believe he does. Just like I'm fairly certain there are no invisible unicorns

If I have evidence of gods existence then that changes everything. Sure science can't answer everything, but that does not mean that there are no answers or that we have to ascend to some higher power to find those answers. I don't make the connection of "unknown" to mean "god did it".

To say you haven't seen any more reason to believe then not to believe doesn't really make sense to me. Are you also agnostic about invisible unicorns, or the famous spaghetti monster simply because there is no proof that they don't exist? Do you see my point? Religion has some special hold in our society. People seem to look at religion outside of the normal realm of reason, accepting things they wouldn't normally accept. I'm not trying to jump on agnostics here, I'm trying to enter your mindset to determine what makes a person so unsure.

I really enjoy these debates, I love getting everyones thoughts on the subject. Considering religion is so integrated into our lives I think it's really important to understand why people believe or disbelieve. I hope tomorrow some of the more religious members might join in the discussion to give insight on the other side

**Cheshire_cat** · 07-26-2007, 09:44 AM

I believe in a higher power. I look at this world we live in the universe and I think how mind blowing it all is (I know that is a typical answer, but for me it’s true.) I mean life in itself is a mystery, there are so many things I look at in life that for me I could not believe that there is not a higher power. As for the meaning of life I sometimes think of a quote that I heard a long time ago “Do not ask what the world needs, ask what makes you come alive and do that, because what the world needs is for people to come alive.” I think everyone on this planet has a passion for something, some may not know what is yet, but they have it. And to do what it is you love equals a meaningful happy life. But that is just me.

**afahosting** · 07-26-2007, 09:52 AM

Cheshire Cat that is a beautiful look on life and the quote is nice thanks for sharing that

~Rick~

**highanddry** · 10:19 AM

I find some athiests just as irritating as some religious people. If you profess to "know" something that is impossible to understand or contemplate and claim it as the undisputed truth, it is irritating. Atheiest don't usually try to "convert" people though, which is something.

Also being agnostic isn't saying that you don't have a stance on the existence of anything and everything, that is a bit of a stretch. Though if you really wanted to get deep into what is and what is not, we could go on for a while. I have written several articles/essays on the topic in philosophy and find that fact is hard to really determine.

My inclination is to at least hope there is a higher power, but faith and organized religion? Not a chance.

**ForrestCroce** · 07-26-2007, 04:51 PM

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Originally Posted by Christopher

I disagree. I'm not saying god surely doesn't exist. I do not base my conclusions on faith. I am saying that the odds of god existing are so small that I have no reason to believe he does.

You sound like an agnostic to me, then.

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Originally Posted by Christopher

I don't make the connection of "unknown" to mean "god did it".

But billions of intelligent humans do. If you look up the psychological definition of a "delusion," like in the context of schizophrenia, it isn't the belief in something that isn't true. It's the persistent, unshakable belief in something society holds to be untrue. Invisible pink unicorns could fall under the delusion category if you explained them to your doctor, but Jesus or Jehova couldn't. You said you don't understand the hold these concepts have on society, but that hold makes them special.

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Originally Posted by Christopher

To say you haven't seen any more reason to believe then not to believe doesn't really make sense to me. Are you also agnostic about invisible unicorns, or the famous spaghetti monster simply because there is no proof that they don't exist? Do you see my point?

What do you have against the Flying Spaghetti Monster? That theory actually goes to great length to explain why it's not measurable, which actually makes more sense than your unicorns. I don't personally believe or disbelieve in the existence of either. Honestly, unicorns are something I haven't thought about in years until you brought them up. I don't have enough evidence or interest to categorically say they don't exist.

If you're so determined to categorize the world that you have to put me into a bucket with regards to belief in unicorns, then agnostic would be the most appropriate label. Do you see my point?

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Originally Posted by Christopher

Religion has some special hold in our society. People seem to look at religion outside of the normal realm of reason, accepting things they wouldn't normally accept.

Again, the Big Bang theory is hardly plausible, either, given what we know about how the world operates. When you put that side by side against the Creation story, I'm not so sure people are operating outside the normal realm of reason. Both theories are hard to swallow, and some people find either one more palatable.

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Originally Posted by Christopher

I'm not trying to jump on agnostics here, I'm trying to enter your mindset to determine what makes a person so unsure.

Quelle sais je? Rein. "The more you know, the more you know you don't know."

**Christopher** · 07-26-2007, 06:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Cheshire_cat

I believe in a higher power. I look at this world we live in the universe and I think how mind blowing it all is (I know that is a typical answer, but for me it’s true.) I mean life in itself is a mystery, there are so many things I look at in life that for me I could not believe that there is not a higher power.

My father feels the same way. He is absolutely amazed at the complexity of it all, and the beauty, that he is sure something must have had a hand.

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Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

You sound like an agnostic to me, then.

Quite atheist. My point is that being an atheist is precisely the lack of faith. Saying I know for sure is just incorrect. I'm as sure in my mind as I am about the billion other things in this world that I can't disprove but am certain don't exist. Being agnostic would mean admitting I can never know because there is not enough evidence to support either side. While this is literally true due to the nature of the idea of religion, for all intents and purposes, I still consider myself atheist (ie. "90% sure"). I am not going to say I'm unsure because something that has no proof for existence also has no proof for non-existence. The existence of god has no proof in the first place, why should I even consider the question of his existence? I could wake up every morning for the rest of my life and think up a new completely nonsensical, unanswerable scenario. Just because I thought it up doesn't mean I'm agnostic about each one because I can't prove it isn't true.

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But billions of intelligent humans do. If you look up the psychological definition of a "delusion," like in the context of schizophrenia, it isn't the belief in something that isn't true. It's the persistent, unshakable belief in something society holds to be untrue. Invisible pink unicorns could fall under the delusion category if you explained them to your doctor, but Jesus or Jehova couldn't. You said you don't understand the hold these concepts have on society, but that hold makes them special.

That religion has a hold on society doesn't really answer why. Are people more willing to accept faith because of a book or because they were raised with it? What makes religion so different then other every day questions to make people base their entire lives around it without question? If people are following religion because any of the above reasons, then I think it's a giant problem in the world.

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What do you have against the Flying Spaghetti Monster? That theory actually goes to great length to explain why it's not measurable, which actually makes more sense than your unicorns. I don't personally believe or disbelieve in the existence of either. Honestly, unicorns are something I haven't thought about in years until you brought them up. I don't have enough evidence or interest to categorically say they don't exist.

If you're so determined to categorize the world that you have to put me into a bucket with regards to belief in unicorns, then agnostic would be the most appropriate label. Do you see my point?

This is where I'm still confused. To say you are agnostic about unicorns is pretty preposterous. Are you really telling me that you are as sure as you are unsure that unicorns exist? I don't understand how you can be equally unsure and sure of the existence of a completely fictional creature. I would bet that a great percentage of people are fairly certain that unicorns do not exist. The fact that there is no proof they don't exist doesn't make the fact that someone decided to make it up any less credible.

I do see your point. It just seems to me that your reason puts things straight into "I know" and "I can't know".

I'm not "determined" to label you, I'm trying to understand if you really are agnostic and why or if your idea of agnosticism is perhaps different then my own. Being atheist does not mean "100% certain god doesn't exist", nor does being a theist necessarily mean "100% certain god does exist" (though most theists are pretty darn certain). Agnostic is admitting you cannot give a decisive answer because you cannot know either way. It may seem like nitpicking but it's an important distinction in this discussion. If you are indeed saying you can't know either way is to say you are considering the truthiness (as Colbert might say

) of an idea with the complete lack of any evidence whatsoever. The fact that there is no evidence is evidence that you should seriously doubt the idea!

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Again, the Big Bang theory is hardly plausible, either, given what we know about how the world operates. When you put that side by side against the Creation story, I'm not so sure people are operating outside the normal realm of reason. Both theories are hard to swallow, and some people find either one more palatable.

Theories are based on hypothesis and evidence to support ideas. Religion is all faith. I don't see how the Big Bang theory can be compared to the faith of religion. Religion is not a theory (at least, in the same sense that the Big Bang is a theory).

**ForrestCroce** · 07-26-2007, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher

This is where I'm still confused. To say you are agnostic about unicorns is pretty preposterous. Are you really telling me that you are as sure as you are unsure that unicorns exist? I don't understand how you can be equally unsure and sure of the existence of a completely fictional creature.

This seems to be where we're misunderstanding each other. I'm not saying that unicorns are 50 % likely and 50 % unlikely to exist. If we're using int values, I'd put the chance at 99 % certainty that unicorns don't exist. That last shadow of a doubt is what I would define as the difference between an atheist and agnostic.

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Originally Posted by Nintendo

I do see your point. It just seems to me that your reason puts things straight into "I know" and "I can't know".

With regard to lumping people as religious, agnostic, and atheistic, that's a very good way to distinguish the last two. On practical matters, there are a lot of shades of uncertainty; I've never actually seen my own heart, and yet I exercise to maintain cardio health. But God is a little more abstract and hands-off. I already don't kill people and generally treat others the way I'd like them to treat me, so I really don't need to measure evidence to the Nth degree; it just doesn't affect my life.

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Originally Posted by Nintendo

I'm trying to understand if you really are agnostic and why or if your idea of agnosticism is perhaps different then my own.

Apparently we have different ideas of what agnosticism means. I don't think there needs to be a 50/50 split; just some level of uncertainty.

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Originally Posted by Nintendo

Theories are based on hypothesis and evidence to support ideas. Religion is all faith. I don't see how the Big Bang theory can be compared to the faith of religion. Religion is not a theory (at least, in the same sense that the Big Bang is a theory).

Technically, science all boils down to learning from observation. Then you build testable hypothesis and try to understand the laws everything operates under. But the Big Bang isn't observable or testable. It's an educated guess that extends everything we've learned about how things work to try to answer the question of where everything came from. In 10,000 years, if we make it that long as a species, we'll probably have abandoned that theory for a much more precise one.

But really why the Big Bang creation theory and the Genesis creation theory, or story or whatever you'd like to call it, are compared is because ... to people born into the world and faced with the question of where the world came from, those are two competing theories in the marketplace of ideas.

And you have to admit, the Big Bang sounds pretty implausible. If you're growing up somewhere in the US and these are your two choices, even if you ignore that 80 % of your peers are deists, the Big Bang and Creation story outlined in the Old Testament seem like two unlikely choices. Both share the same one piece of evidence, as far as lay-people are concerned: we're here to ask the question.

**highanddry** · 07-27-2007, 10:39 AM

I didn't have time to read all the posts but...

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Quite atheist. My point is that being an atheist is precisely the lack of faith. Saying I know for sure is just incorrect.

That is what athiests is, an assertion or rejection. Agnostiscism take the "golden mean," Aristotle's middle ground and follows the reasoning that no real assertions can be made. Given that, I can also say that I strongly reject that religion based on ancient scriptures is pure and true, which gives me some athiestic qualities.

**JASCRJ** · 07-27-2007, 12:02 PM

After all avenues I have taken into the religious, spiritual, and secular worlds, I have found that your 'God' is whoever or whatever you put your trust in to have your needs met.

Only when I became fearless enough to see what I had set into place as my 'God', was I truly able to restructure my life allowing changes along the way as I gained more insight.

Discover whether you are IN this world or OF it and live accordingly. Are you honestly drawn to how the powers in this world operate or do you sense there might be something a tad better around the corner?

Life can definately be an adventure when your attitude is a positive one.

**Nzira** · 07-27-2007, 03:32 PM

"THE SINGULARITY" -duh¿//?... didn't you know.. 'once the net can think' it'll consumate us, our conciosnous will become one, and expand into the universe at the speed of light. interesting read for
Any surfer looking for 'faith' I would suggest the 'Singularity'...-it incorporated every DNA thread ..Like ›> ̧̣̉ ̨̃ ̊‚·° - jlz
I been mediating, meditating, blogging, day-dreaming about this, moreover I have been cre8tin a Debate on this subject ... offline, in defense of the possibility of this quantum leap.

I can only say if the know universe is 'space' then something may make it 'solid' and we engineered it ...i guess, and being in this 4D programme, 'Life' we got a 50megaPixel viewpoint on HHHDV 20CCCD ... c'me on .. . ok a few analogue cameras can take in the same light as our eye, and better, but none the size of an eagle's eye.. and its capability, we're far off... but with terrabyte brains, and 'merkabah' capability i guess. better post this quick reply from my 50.7k connection in harare (only thing that works these days) (hopefully the .net 'Akashic record will log my reply to its own enlightenment and endevours...)