Alright thanks guys. I'll just learn The Gimp for now and Photoshop later when I can afford the $650 dollar one. I was going to get a trial version of Photoshop but they aren't available right now.

Originally Posted by highanddry

Woh scary comparison... I understand the sentiment but your rationale is flawed in places.

If you consider what I said from a different perspective, I think you'll have to change your mind on this. Do you agree that if 2+3 != 7 on Mars, that it probably doesn't add up to 7 on Earth, either? In other words, if Ted Bundy is able to sleep well and we agree this doesn't mean what he did is moral and proper, that being able to sleep doesn't mean that everything you've done that day is well and proper? The magnitude of difference doesn't change anything - it makes it easier to recognize.

Originally Posted by highanddry

Successful programmers don't get laid off, it is pretty convenient to blame downloaders.

Sure they do! Projects are canceled all the time, and companies are forced to close their doors when they run out of (customer based) funding. The better of their staff tend to find employment elsewhere in the industry, but this takes 4 months on average.

Originally Posted by highanddry

I have done programming for online applications (open source), clients and for sales. I expect it all to be downloaded for free and I actually appreciate it for exposure.

And this is a wonderful thing! When people chose to embrace it.

Originally Posted by highanddry

All the wisest musicians support and embrace file downloading. You should have chosen a safer medium my friend.

Some do. The Grateful Dead was a great example. Led Zepplin was a great counter example. Before I met my wife, I dated a girl who saw a man beaten up, his nose broken (so she claimed) after being caught with a tape recorder in one of their concerts. Assaulting people is clearly not their right. Not being forced into a particular business model on pain of theft, because some of their customers prefer that model, is very much their right.

Let me ask you this. Suppose I'm the most talented musician in the history of humankind. That's a stretch when I don't play any music at all, but suppose. You like my music, but CDs haven't been invented yet. Do you have a moral right to force me to play live concerts for you? Are people entitled to my labor? Or do I have the right to say "Screw it - I don't feel like playing music anymore"? Unless you believe in slavery, you have to admit people have a right to stop performing their craft, either on a whim, or because they'd like to be paid for their work. And if people have the right to trade their labor for payment, well, that gets us to today's laws regarding intellectual property theft.

I have a feeling this is boring most people here, but it's been fun to talk about philosophy with you.

Originally Posted by highanddry

I got Photoshop cs3 on a torrent, I'm not sure about the legality of that, but it is certainly easy and I have no moral obligation against it.

I've heard about it on some of those download sites - like highandddry said if you have no moral qualms about downloading it....I got my CS1 for $239 at the school I attended for graphic design. Full pro version too so it was a really good deal.

Someday soon I would like to buy the new one. I do think as far as learning programs goes - the more you know the better your chances at getting a job. Most GD firms use the latest design software and Adobe is the favorite.

Mostly, Professionals use Photoshop. .

Originally Posted by Mystical Pippin

II got my CS1 for $239 at the school I attended for graphic design.

Good point. If you can get an academic license to Photoshop, it's a fraction of the price, and Adobe will honor it when you stop being a student. I don't know whether they give upgrade pricing or not?

I'm almost positive that Adobe is ok with all of the key-generators and hacked programs that exist for their software, otherwise it wouldn't be so easy to hack their programs. It is quite possible that the hacks are coming directly from Adobe.

I saw key generators appear for CS3 a few days after release.

Here is why I think Adobe is okay with it:
People using cracked versions of their software are usually people who can't afford it, are learning, or are independent of any large corporation. Those people, once they hone their skills, and then get hired by any large corporation, become subject to new rules and then become paying customers. Because many designers are self-taught, it is wise for Adobe to give them every opportunity to learn.

I think that if you are looking for a job in the industry (depending on the type of company you end up working for) most employers will recognise photoshop so I can see why you are using gimp now, but long term it will be worth you knowing photoshop or the extent of photoshops abilities. As said before if you are a student somewhere at the minute you are usually able to get the student version.

You can be assured that Adobe are definitely not ok with software piracy, as they were one of the founding members of the Business Software Alliance.

I would definitely agree that they are not ok with large-scale distribution of illegal software, since their ability to make money depends on large customers that must pay a fee for each machine that has their software installed on it.

However, there is much that they could be doing to prevent small-time people from obtaining individual copies of their software, but they don't take any action. It makes me wonder.

Aren't big-time corporations and government entities audited by companies such as Adobe? Isn't it concievable that part of their business plan could be to get as many people to know how to use their software as possible, so that they could later be a part of this auditing process?

It is incredibly easy to hack the 30 day free trial software, as has been proven time and time again. And yet, I have never seen a single key-generator for any popular, mainstream game, such as World of Warcraft. Why aren't they taking the same precautions as the game-makers, who generate individual codes for each packaged product, then verify each set against their database? This would be relatively easy for them to set-up, and yet they do nothing.

Just a thought.

I have tried GIMP but basically Photoshop CSx was somehow easier for me to understand "how to use". I personally purchased photoshop from ebay.

Learn Photoshop. Buy it for ~$1000, learn it, then win some contests for $10 , $20. If someone risks working with you having no portfolio, even better. You will be able to get back your money in no time, and pay the bills.
LOL
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