I'm going to rant, and I'm doing it amongst my fellow designers b/c no one else would get me....

So i'm sponsoring a web forum for late-generation muscle car enthusiasts and recieved the sponsorship based on me redesigning their home page and their logo. Well, the home page went great, and now the guy just can't "GET" good logo design...i have literally done rendition after rendition with such moving feedback like "doesn't do it for me" or "not really working" and it's like "WOULD YOU PLEASE BE A LITTLE MORE INFORMATIVE THAN THAT?!" and i tried to say that and he just can't illustrate what he wants/expects in words except "make it more 3d" which if i konw him, means "use a picture" but the site is meant to appeal to a wide variaty of cars, not just one kind. So to slap a picture of a trans am or vette in there would be like putting up a huge sign that says "CLUB MEMBERS ONLY"

Furthermore, i've done like 20 renditions of the logo and I've had praise from his fellow moderators and other board members, but he just won't accept any of them.

MEH!!!!!!

I can understand the frustration. When you send logos are you explaining why you think the logo will work well for the site and how it will help the forum succeed. I've found explanations like that can help a lot.

Of course the situation you're finding yourself in is why I won't do any work without first receiving partial payment for the job.

the payment was givin immediatly, i was given site sponsorship upon agreement and i tossed a click through up once i finished the home page. So basically i've been "paid" now i jsut can't finish?!

yes, i've sent him a discertation with each logo/rendition explaining exactly what you said and he only replies with one line responces. It's not even like pullin' teeth, it's like tryin to birth children from a man!

At least you got paid. I do know the feeling though about clients not liking what you've done, but never telling you why. I've had some that respond to emails with a single word. Not exactly helpful.

Could you ask him for some examples of logos he likes? That might help. Sometimes seeing what someone else does and doesn't like helps me to give them something they want.

hmmm, good suggestion. I'll try that if he denies this next rendition suite

Sometimes I've just had to figure out a client and see what I can do to help them make a decision. Getting them to point out things they like and don't like helps.

Ar some point you may just have to say that there's nothing more you can do without more info from him. I've had a lot of people not provide what I need until I told them I couldn't do any more until they did. Or I've asked for the info and mentioned if they didn't have it asked if they wanted me to bill them for what I had done to that point. That one usually gets all the info within an hour or two.

ok, i'll try that. thanks =)

Yes unless he's specific hes hired you to a job which you have done, many times over, if the job had exceeded more time than you anticipated let him know there will be a charge, if he cannot give you specifics of what exactly he wants within reason its not really your fault, i have a clause on all my quotes for any extra work done outside the specified agreement is to be charged out at xtra time as well as any reworks of a final proof eg. am hired to do a cartoon of a monkey, client says go ahead on the final proof, so i do then a week later comes back to me and says can i have an elephant i don't like the monkey after all , then its charged out as extra because he okayed the monkey lol

I get money upfront too. (If my mother wants to hire me, she is going to need to give me sonmething upfront.)

I remember when I first started getting a sizeable deposit. I felt that I was indebted to theclient and that I owed them something. They would tend to take advantage of my naive attitude.

I learned that just because a client pays me upfront doesn't mean that they *own* me. Even without the proper wording in a contract, if I have bent over backwards, and the client wants more, nmore, more; Sorry Charly.

Remember! Even when not listed in a contract that youwill only do x# of revisions, it deson't say that you will do revisions until they are completely satisfied. Some clients fell this is the case, however, once you give them a logo you have satisfied the contract... like it or not.

That would be an extreme hard line to take, However, when people are unreasonable, or just difficult to work with, its not your fault, and you don't owe them.

Repeat: YOU DON"T OWE THEM! AND THEY DON"T OWN YOU!

Your mindset needs to be: You have the upper hand. Say to your client, "If you want something more specific, you are going to have to be specific. Until you can figure out a way to articulate what you want, I will have no idea. I can't keep making stabbs in the dark. Unless you want to pay ofr each stab..?"

<just a rant on Vangogh's position. He said it a little more nicely.>

I go out of my way as it sound like you do too. I decide to remain in control in these situations. Don't take it personally and don't let it bother you. Learn to view it as business. And, when you reach the end of your rope... Just Stop. Its not your problem (unless YOU make it yoru problem) its their problem!
Let them work it out.

Chip

Ok, so i did another round and once again got shot down in the firing range. Now, if i sucked *** as a logo designer, i'd know, but FFS, i know wtf i'm doing and these logos are being adored by friends/collegues of mine and they are in disbelief too.

So i finally told the guy "I'm not dong any more, you'll have to choose from one that I gave you or find someone else." I can see where Chip is coming from, but I'm in a position where I really really needed to do this b/c I am the site's web/graphics sponsor and it just doesn't look good on my behalf to come up short, and i can't talk **** on the admin i'm working for b/c that won't look good either. So i do feel bad, but I had to get it in my head last night that this isn't my fault.

It's definitely not your fault. There's a limit to how much you should have to do. You do want to give your clients some options to choose from and work with them a little so they get what they want. But if the client isn't giving you anything to go on and just asks for more it gets ridiculous.

It's a hard thing to tell the client you're not doing any more work, or at least any more until they provide more feedback that you can use, but it's pointless to keep creating logos for them without them being able to help out in the process.

Hopefully your client will either pick one of the logos you've already created or at least give you enough feedback to allow you to create the one they want.

Well said vangogh, thats exactly it, you seriously have to look at how much time you have given them, and if they cannot be specific in what they want after receiving loads of diff designs, then you have to come to a point where enough is enough, it is a business and its no use carrying on for weeks on end spending hours designing work and getting no feedback from the client.

Originally Posted by woosh

Well said vangogh, thats exactly it, you seriously have to look at how much time you have given them, and if they cannot be specific in what they want after receiving loads of diff designs, then you have to come to a point where enough is enough, it is a business and its no use carrying on for weeks on end spending hours designing work and getting no feedback from the client.

lmao!! my old screen name was "dipherentdesign"

thanks for everyone's support through this.

Jaison I think most of us have been there before, which is why it's easy to empathize and offer support.

It took me a long time to learn when I had to put my foot down with a client and it's not always an easy thing to do. you just see the money you might potentially lose. But when you think about it you might be able to work on things for two or three other clients in the time it will take you to just guess what this client wants.

It really isn't an easy thing to do the first time and I know I like to be as good to my clients as I can be. I think in general I am too, but sometimes you really have to put your foot down. Some clients will continue to take advanatge of you if you don't.

It won't surprise me if now that you have they'll come back with a detailed list of what they want or happily choose one of the logos you'e already done.

I have a client I am doing a crappy website for atm and he wants the horriblest things on it as in graphics and the look of the whole thing is horrid lol but he loves it and thats what he wants lol, he went off a brochure and to be honest the brochure was horrid too lol so i suppose thats the other side of the coin doing work you hate hahaha

I've been ther too woosh, as most of us have. I have a certain tolerance for this as well. Many feel that you should do what the client wants. If he wants it too look crappy that's his concern.

Well, I don't put my name on anything that doesn't meet my own standards. If you want a crappy design, hire somene else to do it. Not me!

Have you ever lost a job because your name was associated with a poor piece of work? My reputation is one of my most important assets. I refuse to mar it with someone else's work!

Do what I usually do in this situation, 3rdShift. If you have support on your idea from all but the person making the final call, use that support to your advantage. Say "XXX in your board thinks the logo idea is good, so does YYY and ZZZ. So people who use the board regularly like the logo."

If that doesn't work, there is nearly nothing that will.

I love all the replies i'm getting from you people. It shows that i'm among professionals and i feel at home for that.

In the end, the admin just kept the logo that the site had when it originally went up, long before i joined. I'm kinda happy that he didn't ask for someone else to make a new logo either [i know this for a fact b/c he asked me to do a bunch of cafepress stuff with the old logo just recently]

my fear wasn't losing money, it was the fact that I couldn't give the guy what he wanted; i felt inferior and unable to live up to my clients expectations. I'm glad to know i'm not the only one who's had to deal with ***-hat clients. I don't think i'm in the financial situation where i can say "your idea sucks, now get out" but maybe in a few years?

Truth be told, it was everyone's responces on here that gave me the courage to present him with the ultimatiim. He infact publicly announced that it's his fault the logo won't change b/c he can't decide on one he likes. I was glad he didn't scream "third_shift is a sham and can't do his work right!" Man, that woulda made my day...

Lol well done and now you can relax and not stress anymore, I find that the biggest thing we as designers, illustrators or whatever we want to call ourselves, lack is confidence, and there is always a little self doubt occassionally, we don't stop to think that sometimes, just sometimes it might well be the client and not us that is actually the crux of the problem. The one major thing I come across alot of is a client will ask for something and not be specific until you have done two or three designs and then say ooo no, i want this and that, lol at least its over and its great he came out and said what he did *hugs*

And, what is really aggrevating is when we turn around and say, "How the heck did I get into this situation again? I thought that I'd learn from the last time this happened!"

After the third time you get wise enough to start spotting these individuals and learn to take the proper precausions upfront to keep this to a minimum. It is still going to happen every once in a while but you do get better at handling them. It doesn't happen often, but I guarantee that it will happen again.

Chin up and make the best of it.. Next time you won't stress as much. We promise!