HTML Forum

**hairygunther** · 05:23 AM

First to sum up - the two big problems I've found with divs are...

1. h/v centering can be a real bugger - if you have a carefully laid out page with everything placed at a precise absolute location, even sticking a "mother" div type thing in and moving that around doesn't solve the problem totally or easily and on different screens, platforms etc you see the stuff in different places... a few tricky equations may well solve it, but I never managed it when I tried, for days

2. If you extend a window yourself, a table will extend with it, if it is sized by percent. I've found that divs stay the same, no matter how they're sized - i.e. the page must be reloaded to reset the div's paramaters...

However I will be willing to accept that divs are still vastly superior to tables IF someone can prove to me that this object here (a website) can be easily centred on ANY screensize, platform etc, both horizontally and vertically...

Code:

<body bgcolor="#6b6b9a">


<div id="Layer1" style="position:absolute; left:-14px; top:-4px; width:465px; height:200px; z-index:1"> 
  <object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,29,0" width="400" height="200">
    <param name="movie" value="p123logo_second_003.swf">
    <param name="quality" value="high"><param name="LOOP" value="false">
    <embed src="p123logo_second_003.swf" width="400" height="200" loop="false" quality="high" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"></embed></object>
</div>
<div id="Layer2" style="position:absolute; left:483px; top:10px; width:463px; height:101px; z-index:2">
<p align=center><font face="verdana,helvetica,geneva"> <font size="2">
<script language="javascript">
var ko=document.cookie.split("; ");
document.write("<a href='checkout.aspx?" + ko[0] + "'>Your basket</font></a> <font color='#cccccc' size='2'>|</font> ");
</script>

  <a href="default.aspx"><font size="2">Home</font></a> 
    <font 
color="#cccccc" size="2">|</font>

 <a href="privacy.aspx"><font size="2">Privacy</font></a> 
    
    <font color="#cccccc" size="2">|</font> 

<font size="2"><A href="help.aspx">Help</a> 
    <font color="#cccccc">|</font></font> 
    <font size="2"><A href="feedback.aspx">Feedback</a></font> 
  </p>
  </font></div>
<div id="Layer3" style="position:absolute; left:463px; top:95px; width:541px; height:500px; z-index:3"> 


  <span id="jogrosh">
  <object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,29,0" width="500" height="500">
    <param name="movie" value="big_base_middle_draft_one.swf">
    <param name="quality" value="high"><param name="LOOP" value="false">
    
    <embed src="big_base_middle_draft_one.swf" width="500" height="500" loop="false" quality="high" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"></embed></object>

</span>

</div>
<div id="Layer4" style="position:absolute; left:141px; top:211px; width:375px; height:45px; z-index:4"> 

<div id="pan_form">
    


  <form name="ctl00" method="post" action="default.aspx" id="ctl00" enctype="multipart/form-data">
    <div>
    <input type="hidden" name="__VIEWSTATE" id="__VIEWSTATE" value="/wEPDwUKMjEyMTM0MzkyMA9kFgICAw9kFgICAQ8WAh4HZW5jdHlwZQUTbXVsdGlwYXJ0L2Zvcm0tZGF0YWQYAQUeX19Db250cm9sc1JlcXVpcmVQb3N0QmFja0tleV9fFgIFCmJ0bl91cGxvYWQFCmJ0bl9zdWJtaXRGIzxwwc78oHwGaU1eV+uU/8lHVw==" />
    </div>

    <div>

        <input type="hidden" name="__EVENTVALIDATION" id="__EVENTVALIDATION" value="/wEWAwKgheiBDwK8ouy8AwLwhZ6iD0k0lurvJJbYkXNggO8J2dgqGrhs" />
    </div>    

    
<span id="uploadinfo"></span><br>

  <p><font size="4" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>YOUR IMAGE FILE: 
    </strong></font></p>
 
    
 

<input name="txtUpload" type="file" id="txtUpload" class="form-fieldarea" /><br>


<input type="image" name="btn_upload" id="btn_upload" class="btn_upload" src="btn_upload.gif" style="border-width:0px;" />

    </strong> </font> 

<p>&nbsp;</p>

</asp:Label>
<input type=hidden name="basket">
<input type=hidden name="siteuser">


  <span id="josephus">
  <p><font size="4" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>FORMAT/SIZE: </strong></font> 
<p>
  
    <select name="formatone">
      <option value="120 by 80">120cm x 80cm </option>
 <option value="120 by 80">120cm x 80cm </option>
      </select>
   <br>
      <select name="formattwo">
      <option value="Poster">Poster </option>
            <option value="Canvas">Canvas </option>
      </select>
      &nbsp;
       <select name="formatthree">
      <option value="Foamboard">Foam Board </option>
            <option value=""> </option>
      </select>
    </p>

  <p>&nbsp;</p>
  
  <input type="image" name="btn_submit" id="btn_submit" class="btn_submit" src="btn_submit.jpg" style="border-width:0px;" /></span>
  
</form>
</div>
  
  
  <span id="melenk"></span>
  <br><br><br><br>
  <span id="jege"></span>




</asp:Panel>


</asp:Label>




  
</div>

<div id="Layer7" style="background-color:#ffffff; position:absolute; left:0px; top:0px; width:976px; height:600px; z-index:0"></div>



</body>

If someone can show me how that page can be made to be centred, anywhere on any screen, I will be both pleased and more favourable towards divs... but I still think anyone who categorically denies the utility of tables is being a bit dogmatic... reloading a page every time its window is resized is a lunatic alternative to having a table!

Tips please.

**LadynRed** · 07-03-2009, 10:06 AM

Quote:

h/v centering can be a real bugger

Not really. Horizontal centering is a piece of cake. Vertical centering is a little bit more work, but certainly do-able... and position:absolute is NOT necessary or even.

Quote:

I've found that divs stay the same, no matter how they're sized - i.e. the page must be reloaded to reset the div's paramaters...

Not true! If you size a layout using percentages, the layout will adjust as you adjust your screen size, and a re-load is NOT needed to do it!

Quote:

but I still think anyone who categorically denies the utility of tables is being a bit dogmatic... reloading a page every time its window is resized is a lunatic alternative to having a table!

There are, of course, plenty of current web standards people who will categorically refute that - including me! Sounds to me like you just don't want to make the effort to learn to use table-less layouts and would rather stick with methods from the last century.

There were people who thought horses were better than automobiles once too.

Based on that code - you're relying on Dreamweaver in WYSIWYG mode - hence all the position:absolute and "layerX" garbage and you're using nasty <font> tags, and probably other deprecated code.

I realize that using .Net is going to mean you're stuck with tables for DATA for some controls, but DATA is what tables were and are meant for.

Use a PROPER doctype on every page, and use something besides html 4.0 transitional loose.

Lastly, if you're stuck on absolute pixel perfection cross-browser, you're not going to get it, not even with tables because all of the browsers do things just a tiny bit differently.

**marketingman100** · 07-03-2009, 12:31 PM

I just have to jump in here.

I have been in this craft since about day 5 of the internet going public. So I have seen and worked through ALL the code transitions.

I am one who doesn't follow the herd either. Just because the hard core programmers psychopaths who set the **** standards dictate things, doesn't mean that we should not fight back.

When it takes six times the CSS code to create the same affect as a simple table,
there is something WRONG with that picture.

Most of you have lost the core concept of the Internet.
It was invented to transfer and disseminate information,
Not to be a forum for dimented programmers to see who could invent the latest bandwidth hogging BS.

Last but certainly not least......HORSES ARE TERRIFIC!
Especially with the price of gas going through the roof.

**LadynRed** · 07-03-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

It was invented to transfer and disseminate information,

Yes.. for the MILITARY, and then for academia!

People, like me, who write HTML code and support web standards, are NOT PROGRAMMERS, HTML is not programming. Programmers are the people who write PHP, .Net, SOAP, JAVA, STRUTS, take your pick, they are 'programmers'.

Quote:

When it takes six times the CSS code to create the same affect as a simple table,

I guess that depends on your level of expertise at it. If you learn how it works, and learn to write efficient code, that shouldn't be the case

I've been doing this a long time too, but I have learned, updated my skillset and moved on past the 'old days' - and I"m much happier for it too!

I happen to like horses.. but the days of using them for primary transportation is long gone - and so should tables for layout.

**orionoreo** · 07-03-2009, 06:40 PM

couple years ago when I started to do a lot of cross browser compatibility coding I gave up on "precise" layouts, I've designed for flexibility, this actually permits a lot of functions to be added in, in the future with ease...

**GeekSpecialties** · 07-04-2009, 12:12 AM

If you are having trouble with css layouts here are a couple of sites with bare css templates for you to study/use.

http://mitchbryson.com/free-css-templates
http://www.code-sucks.com/css%20layouts/

**serandfae** · 07-04-2009, 12:56 AM

There is one reason, and one reason only, that you think divs are so bad:

You are relying upon Dreamweaver to do your code for you.

If you code it yourself, and learn to use CSS properly, your tune will change. I've lost count of how many people I've heard kvetch about the evils of divs, or CSS, or extoll the merits of tables, whose pages were created by the garbage code spat out by Dreamweaver or Frontpage. I usually keep quiet about it because those of us that can code rake it in when people who buy those programs and suddenly think that they're instant web designers come to us to fix things. Why ruin a good thing?

tim

**marketingman100** · 07-04-2009, 04:47 PM

Don't be so **** smug Tim. Personally, I used HotDog for years because I was not coding complicated sites and I was using Raw code, not it's WYSIWYG editor
which sucked and still does. I would be that I was hand coding HTML before
you were out of diapers.

I finally switched to Dreamweaver because I inherited a client who had used their templates to create a site, badly, and I needed the base product to read those files. I also needed something that could create and or recognize CSS far better than HotDog did.

Quite frankly, whether I was using Hotdog, Dreamweaver or whatever, I would still not be a huge fan of CSS. It takes far too much thinking to do simple tasks. I'll be the first to admit I am now learning the intricacies of CSS, PHP and MYSQL all because of clients I inherited for one reason or another. Most of them running quickly from greedy designers who have raped them to the edge of insolvency
by putting too many BS bells and whistles on their sites.

I had to redo an entire site not to long ago because of the way IE pukes on floating divs and margins that happen to not be just picture perfectly set.

I have ALWAYS fought some of these extensions. If it were up to me, some things like flash, would be banned completely. And crap sites like Utube, Napster or anything like it, Facebook, Myspace et....would not be allowed period. Those are all bandwidth wasting garbage as far as I am concerned.

The point is to disseminate information to as many browsers as possible and to the biggest audience. Many of you forget that a good chuck of that audience lives in countries where the technology is far below what we have here. But! Those people still spend money.

Their older browsers don't even read CSS. So I make sure I use CSS sparingly
and I could show you 100 articles taking my position vs. yours. Especially for those of us selling to a world wide audience.

**LadynRed** · 07-04-2009, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Their older browsers don't even read CSS. So I make sure I use CSS sparingly

And in those places where they do not have access to the more recent browsers, you can STILL use CSS and have it 'degrade' gracefully so that people using ancient browsers can still get the benefit of a site - but still be ok for current browser users.

Quote:

I had to redo an entire site not to long ago because of the way IE pukes on floating divs and margins that happen to not be just picture perfectly set.

There is no argument from any of us that IE is a royal pain in the patoot, but with good coding techniques, the 'adjustments' needed to force IE into line is not all that difficult.

Quote:

I would be that I was hand coding HTML before you were out of diapers.

I don't think so, Tim's no kid, HTML hasn't been around THAT long - unless you were part of the military working on ARPANET, you weren't!

**serandfae** · 07-05-2009, 01:31 AM

Quote: