Hi,

A friend of mine in Australia is learning to design and build websites, at a college. His teacher claims that XHTML will soon be outdated, a thing of the past, and that tools such as Dreamweaver, Flash etc. will be all that is needed.
Any thoughts on this ?
I did some research on Google but could only find old stories on this subject.
Thanks for the forum, Mickmac

There will never be a web designer out there worth his salt that cannot code a page without relying upon a WYSIWYG editor. Any teacher that tells you otherwise is either lazy or simply filled with excrement. That's because there has never been, and we're unlikely to see anytime soon, such an editor that can output decent, cross-browser compatible code.

All editors have to output some variant of HTML to display on the page. Even Flash has to use it to embed its content, but consider that Flash-based pages that put all of their functions within the Flash coding are not accessible. Not accessible == losing money, because you're cutting out part of your market. Flash is fine for what it was intended for: animations. Keep the functional parts of your site in the HTML.

Look at it this way: There are teachers who will tell you not to worry so much about learning proper spelling and grammar because word processors have spell check. Would you sacrifice a proper education in the basics based on that nonsense? Would you rather heed such advice and look like a moron to employers or potential clients years later?

tim

Originally Posted by serandfae

Look at it this way: There are teachers who will tell you not to worry so much about learning proper spelling and grammar because word processors have spell check.

Nicely put. I might have to nick that..

XHTML will soon be outdated ?? Hmm... ok.. is this teacher relying on HTML 5 ?? HTML 5 is not ready for 'prime time', and it will be YEARS before even half of it is fully supported by ALL browsers. So.. is XHTML, and HTML 4.01 soon to be outdated ? Technically, yes, but it's YEARS away.

As for relying solely on a WYSIWYG editor.. as Tim so eloquently put it.. that's just HORSEHOCKEY!!

He may be referring to XHTML 2 being dropped in favor of HTML 5 (Source http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/07...ML-2-Cancelled ) but more likely he is talking about stuff he doesn't know about. Tim and LadynRed, however, speak the truth.

What will that mean to websites that are built based on XHTML ?

Probably nothing. If, as is most common, the code is being rendered as TEXT, and not XML, it's still mostly straight HTML, just with stricter rules.

That teacher is a fool. Learning HTML/XHTML teaches you the fundamentals of design in a format almost anyone can understand. Granted, you do want to learn the newer code tends and some of the more potent languages like PHP, ASP, PERL but as I told someone in another thread, reliance on a WYSIWYG editor teaches you NOTHING. In fact I find the one isn Dreamweaver cumbersome, because when you make simple changes it doesn't always correct the underlying code. (Font Changes, Bolding, et)

I think it really depends on how fast the net moves forward in the next five years.
If Net Neutrality dies, you won't have to learn anything unless you are working for one of the major wes design corporations. The rest of us will be "S" "O" "L".

For those of you who don't know what is happening with "Net Neutrality" you best go Google it YESTERDAY!

The XHTML 2 Working Group charter will not be renewed after 2009—as far as the W3C are concerned, XHTML5 is the future of XHTML.

I am the teacher in question, my student showed me the reply from this forum. I felt it neccessary to clear a few things up here.

First, my student missunderstood me about XHTML being outdated. I stated that there is a new version of HTML being released (HTML5). I then went on to explain that eventually the old versions of HTML will be superceeded but not removed entirely. I think that is where the confusion was...

Also, another area I think that was confused was the matter of using software ie Dreamweaver. Now, what I said was is that it is easier and faster to create pages using some software. NOT that it is the only way of creating a webpage. I am teaching the code as well, not just how to use the software. In fact, our first session in HTML was using notepad....

So, I trust that clears things up. I have spoken to the student and I think he understands.

By the way, you shouldn't make assumtions about people using software to build a website. Never judge a book by it's cover...

Hello "teacher" and I use that phrase lightly. Are you teaching "code" or are you teaching "web design?" There's a big difference between the two concepts.

Do I understand that you are mixing using Notepad and Dreamweaver in the same class? I can see the confused looks on your student's faces from here. The two methodologies are worlds apart.

The friend of the student indicated that this was a college level class. That pretty much says things in a nutshell. They are being subjected to an Academician's interpretation of the "real world."

Your students need to come visit this forum so we can clarify the obvious garbage
you are feeding them.

Before you or anyone else asks, I have taught students in six different forums
off and on for over 20 years.

Technical School Classroom, Seminars, Adult Continuing Education Classroom, Online and Individual and Small Group Training Sessions at corporations.

Your students need to come visit this forum so we can clarify the obvious garbage you are feeding them.

It's not necessary to be insulting, since you really do NOT know EXACTLY what IS being taught by his brief explanation.

I stated that there is a new version of HTML being released (HTML5). I then went on to explain that eventually the old versions of HTML will be superceeded but not removed entirely.

True enough, since I don't think any previous version of HTML has been removed - the W3C just deprecates things, which does not preclude the use of those tags. All the browsers still support the old stuff.

Now, what I said was is that it is easier and faster to create pages using some software.

In that I would tend to agree with. Programs like DW do make it easier, and faster, to create pages. The only problem, especially in the hands of newbies who have NOT learned to hand code, is that left on their own, these page creating programs tend to produce some REALLY ugly code, fraught with problems. We see them daily here, people relying on DW and then coming here because something is 'broken'. Even DW CS4, which is a far cry from it's predecessors, produces some cumbersome code, and it is, unfortunately, the nature of the beast. They put in tools for that Spry menu system - and we have people here ALL the time that have troubling getting that thing to work properly.

Unfortunately, the state of curriculums for 'web design' in today's schools is way behind the curve, too many are still teaching tables for layout, and too much reliance on programs like DW. Kudos to the teachers who teach hand-coding FIRST, including CSS for layout, they are at least teaching current methods. IMO, a TOOL like DW is great - once you KNOW how to code w/o it. DW has some great site managment tools that are very helpful. I just don't think it's a good tool for newbies, and I've used DW since it's 1.0 days. I rarely use it today, frankly, it annoys me.. just call me a "Code Nazi"

Don't sit here and declare my rhetoric insulting and then turn around and say the same thing yourself. Most, if not all colleges, teach antiquated garbage in computer classes and then turn the poor slobs loose on the world to produce pathetic websites and software full of bloated badly written code. (Vista)

I am not nor will I ever be "politically correct". In my career I have retrained hundreds of people who received lousy training in "college".

I made a simple pure statement. His students need to come hang out in here to learn how to do it correctly.

Originally Posted by LadynRed

Unfortunately, the state of curriculums for 'web design' in today's schools is way behind the curve, too many are still teaching tables for layout, and too much reliance on programs like DW.

Originally Posted by marketingman100

Most, if not all colleges, teach antiquated garbage in computer classes

How many colleges have you attended? With the exception of maybe community colleges I don't think very many universities even teach HTML in a computer science program. You should probably find a decent campus nearby and sit down in a classroom before making general statements.

I made a simple pure statement. His students need to come hang out in here to learn how to do it correctly.

But you did it in a rather insulting way, and that's just uncalled for.

I am not nor will I ever be "politically correct"

I don't really care, but you don't have to be rude.

In my career I have retrained hundreds of people who received lousy training in "college".

So have I, and sadly, I know that the colleges in my area are still not up to snuff and are behind the times.

Originally Posted by marketingman100

Don't sit here and declare my rhetoric insulting and then turn around and say the same thing yourself. Most, if not all colleges, teach antiquated garbage in computer classes and then turn the poor slobs loose on the world to produce pathetic websites and software full of bloated badly written code. (Vista)

I am not nor will I ever be "politically correct". In my career I have retrained hundreds of people who received lousy training in "college".

I made a simple pure statement. His students need to come hang out in here to learn how to do it correctly.

I'm sorry mate but you have got a lot of things very wrong. First of all, you insulted me personally and professionally without having a clue about who I am or what I teach. For that, I feel sorry for you. You obviously are so stuck in your ways that you would come on these forums and insult people with such little information. I would love for you to come and complete my course and then tell me I am full of "----". I don't think you would.

If you think that having "the best code" is all that matters, then you have got it all wrong. It's sad people like you that make these forums not worth visiting. When someone asks a simple question on a forum and people like you jump to conclusions about a matter that they really have no idea about (me and my course) then it's not worth coming to these forums. I am afraid that you have undermined yourself and the industry if you think that coming on these forums and insulting people is good.

I will be informing my students that they should be careful when asking questions on these such forums. What's the point in insulting people I ask? Are we meant to learn something? If you claim that you have "re-trained" people and you think that insulting people like me is good then you have a serious lack in judgement and professionalism.

By the way, I do not like how your websites are designed. That is my opinion, not an insult. You may have good code but code is not everything. By the way you speak, it seems like you think code is everything. Go back under your rock and don't reply to this unless you have an apology or a much better attitude.

The people that have insulted me in this thread should crawl back under the rock from which they came and dwell upon their code. If code is all you care about then so be it, but don't spread you poor attitude around and insult people.

The responses I have received on this forum have been disappointing. I will not bother asking for advice here. I responded to this thread as I felt that I was being misunderstood and all I got was insults (some people have sympathised with me, thanks to them). It's all to easy to sit at home and insult people with the keyboard. I challenge you to come and say it to my face. We can have a discussion about it like ADULTS.

By the way. I didn't know that an operating system made bad HTML code. (refer to statement about badly written code (Vista).....

I challenge you to come and say it to my face

I'd love a trip to Australia..always wanted to see it !

Please don't let 1 sour apple spoil your entire opinion of this forum. In general, we have pretty good people here, but like any public forum, not everyone is always nice and polite.

Thanks LadynRed. You would be most welcome to come visit!

I still have to use html skills while using dreamweaver. Everything that is digital on this planet will always be based on codes and numbers and will always be that underlying system to any software or digital object. Without an understanding of the code running something, you will never be able to manipulate, utilize, or plainly control every aspect of something just from outside.

Quite true. I am often editing the code from DW. It does some strange things....