Originally Posted by LadynRed

They are NOT "languages"!!!

I beg to differ with you here, AGAIN.

HTML is indeed a language.
HYPERTEXT MARKUP LANGUAGE
It can be used to construct a web site from beginning to end.

CSS is not a language as you can not construct a site out of only CSS.

Discussion of semantics is rather boring but here goes.

MM100 is in fact correct, HTML is (by its own definition) a language - its a markup language.

It is not however a programming language since it can't do intelligent functions like "if/then/else" operations.

Regarding the OPs question.
I think its a case of the 20/80 rule.

20 percent of the HTML and CSS tags/declarations will get you 80 percent
of what you need to do on your website.
But there is no reason not to learn the other more obscure tags/declarations as you go. You might find out a more
efficient way of doing something.

The equine isn't dead yet!

Without at least some elements of HTML, all programming languages are useless on the Internet.

I've been programming since CPM.
Including Basic, Cobol, Pascal, Foxpro, Dbase, C and now some PHP.
Also a bit of Perl, Javascript and Visual Basic.

HTML IS a programming language albeit a simple one.

It can receive data, manipulate it and render it back to the users.
That's all ANY programming language does at it's core.

Data IN Data Out.

Hi O Silver!!!!!!

Originally Posted by LadynRed

They are NOT "languages"!!!

Sorry, I disagree here too.

A language by it's very definition is a system of structuring information with a syntax consisting of symbols, letters, strings, etc. And that's what HTML is, it uses semantics to display information such as text, lists, links, etc.

HTML is a markup language that communicates with the web browser in the same way that a scripting language like PHP communicates with the web server or a programming language like C++ communicates with the compiler.

Even CSS can be considered a "language" to a degree:
http://www.w3.org/Style/#what


Mark, how much you should learn and know really depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want to become a full-time web designer and developer, then I'd say yes, you absolutely should learn as much as you can.

However, if you only want to create a few pages here and there, as a hobby in your spare time or something, then learn only as much as you need to get the job your working towards, done. It never hurts to bookmark resources and come back to them when you're stuck or need help.

I'd say HTML is a language, but it is definitely not a programming language. HTML and CSS are generally referred to as markup and display languages. They are not used to create procedures of any sort, they are only used to describe data. JavaScript, Cobal, C, Fortran, Python, those are programming languages. They take data and make it do something.

In order to be a programming language, there needs to be both input and output. HTML and CSS only have output.

HTML has the ability to receive input data via FORMS.

Thus is can do both input and output.

Limited, but still both sides.

HTML cannot receive data via forms, the data MUST be retrieved via a secondary script/method either client side or server side.

Sorry, not true.

It can be disseminated by a simple Mailto: command.

Crude, but still output.

Charming as this debate is, what has it to do with the OP's question?

tim

Don't look at me with a frown. LnR kicked the discussion in this direction....

HTML does not handle mailto: in links or forms. The browser passes a command to the email client on the machine.

I believe the distinction LnR was making is that HTML, though it has language in its name, is not a language in the traditional definition; ie a programming language such as Perl.

Yes, that is where I was coming from, sorry if I didn't clarify it enough for SOME people. People all too often refer to HTML as 'a programming language', which it is not.

I come from the days of Fortran, Assembler, FoxPro, COBOL, dBase, RPG, and the like, I know exactly what it was like back then and what a programming language truly is -HTML isn't it.

If HTML is not a language I give you this challenge.

Create a FUNCTIONING, USEFUL website in PERL, JAVASCRIPT or PHP
WITHOUT using ANY HTML.

As for the Mailto: rebuttal above. HTML still executes the Mailto:
By opening the default mail client. Whether or not the Mail client or the user actually send the email, is not HTML's fault or deficiency. HTML still provides(outputs) the data for the mail Progams use.

Mr MM100

Here is the definition of a programming language from Wikipedia:

"A programming language is a machine-readable artificial language designed to express computations that can be performed by a machine, particularly a computer."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language

So if you argue that HTML is a programming language, I challenge
you to write a script in HTML only that is capable of performing
this computation:

x + y = c

It's impossible.
I think that should settle the argument about what HTML is or is not.
Can we move on?

Originally Posted by TWD

Mr MM100

Here is the definition of a programming language from Wikipedia:

"A programming language is a machine-readable artificial language designed to express computations that can be performed by a machine, particularly a computer."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language

So if you argue that HTML is a programming language, I challenge
you to write a script in HTML only that is capable of performing
this computation:

x + y = c

It's impossible.
I think that should settle the argument about what HTML is or is not.
Can we move on?

read the post: no one said programming language originally - they said language. HTML "Hyper Text Markup Language". so your programming language definition just isn't relevant, and ladynred is mistaken when she says that HTML is not a language.

Originally Posted by davemies

read the post: no one said programming language originally - they said language. HTML "Hyper Text Markup Language". so your programming language definition just isn't relevant, and ladynred is mistaken when she says that HTML is not a language.

Well......
actually I think you should read the post

Wayfarer07

In order to be a programming language, there needs to be both input and output. HTML and CSS only have output.

Marketingman100

HTML has the ability to receive input data via FORMS.
Thus is can do both input and output.
Limited, but still both sides.

So MM100 was clearly implying the HTML was a programming language.
My post was simply to refute that point.

Now that is my last post on these useless semantics games and can I have the last 5 minutes of my life back?

oops sorry TWD that's what comes from trying to quickly reread all the thread before replying whilst looking after twins - i see you replied to what MM100 was saying (re programming language), rather than what was originally said about it being a language. (see how complicated it gets when people go off at a tangent

you can gladly have the last 5 minutes of your life back

Originally Posted by davemies

oops sorry TWD that's what comes from trying to quickly reread all the thread before replying whilst looking after twins - i see you replied to what MM100 was saying (re programming language), rather than what was originally said about it being a language. (see how complicated it gets when people go off at a tangent

you can gladly have the last 5 minutes of your life back

Thank you!
I will use it to quietly drink my beer .

Just because HTML can not do Math calculations does not mean it is NOT a PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE.

Case in Point the Differences between COBOL, FORTRAN and Foxpro.

FORTRAN being used more for Math and Engineering BECAUSE it include more mathematical Conscripts.

Also, you should have gone one step FURTHER in Wiki and read the definition of the word "computation."

"Computation is a general term for any type of information processing."

HTML processes information therefore it is a PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE.

Albeit a crude very simplistic one.

I'll take it a step further. Although I contest the point that HTML is even capable of handling any type of user input dynamically by its very definition, I believe that my original assessment that a programming language is one that takes input and then gives output is incorrect.

According to Douglas Crockford, a programming language is defined as any language that is capable of writing its own compiler. The reason that this is an important definition, is that several years ago there was intense debate over whether JavaScript was in fact a programming language. Crockford proved that JavaScript was in fact a programming language by using it to write its own compiler, illustrating how powerful the language is. This application became what is now known as Crockford's JSLint.

Now I think we can all mostly agree that JavaScript is a programming language, but I am still sometimes surprised when I hear the myth repeated that it is not. I think we can also all agree that HTML is not capable of writing its own compiler.