HTML Forum

**Dee** · 11-24-2004, 06:46 AM

Hi,
I keep getting the error message:

This page is not Valid HTML 4.01 Transitional!

when I check my webpages in W3C Markup Validation Service.

I use the following for my Doctype:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

Therefore, I can't understand why I'm getting this error message. I'm on Windows XP using Dreamweaver Ultradev 4.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Cheers!
Dee

**Snowblind** · 11-24-2004, 07:30 AM

Well I'm using:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

Which I believe is the loose standards for HTML 4.01.

Try putting this at the very top of your page and see if it works. I've never used dreamweaver to make a website - but this could just mean that it is not complying with the Html 4.01 standards. In this case it should show you a list of what is wrong below it. This should help in fixing any errors that may be there as a result of using Dreamweaver (if dreamweaver does generate error-filled code).

If you have any further problems paste in what's it says is wrong and I'll try my best to help you solve your problem.

**Dee** · 11-24-2004, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowblind

Well I'm using:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

Which I believe is the loose standards for HTML 4.01.

Try putting this at the very top of your page and see if it works. I've never used dreamweaver to make a website - but this could just mean that it is not complying with the Html 4.01 standards. In this case it should show you a list of what is wrong below it. This should help in fixing any errors that may be there as a result of using Dreamweaver (if dreamweaver does generate error-filled code).

If you have any further problems paste in what's it says is wrong and I'll try my best to help you solve your problem.

Hi Snowblind,
Thanks for your reply. I've changed the Doctype to the one you suggested but I'm still getting the same error message (This page is not Valid HTML 4.01 Transitional!) when checking the page in W3C Markup Validation Service at: http://validator.w3.org/

Should I worry about this or is the problem negligable? I wouldn't like to think that my site will have trouble getting in search engines etc. because of this error.
Thanks!
Dee

**karinne** · 11-24-2004, 10:55 AM

what you're url.... the fact that they say the page in not valid html doesn't mean the doctype is wrong... it could just be that you have error in your html

**faze1** · 11-24-2004, 12:51 PM

I agree, add the link to your site so we can see whats happeneing, it is possible that there are only a few syntax errors. Typically there is almost always a way to display the site the way you intended and still validate so I can't think of any reason not to. Invalid code does not neccessarilly mean you wont be indexed by search engines, but I'm sure between all the people here on this forum we can get you to validate anyway.

I use the the doctype <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">, for my 4.01 transitional files and all my pages validate, so I think we just need to see the error reprt to figure out what is going on.

Cheers,

**Dee** · 11-24-2004, 04:05 PM

The URL is: ewebsolutions.co.uk

As you will see, it's early in the site development which is why I want to fix any problems as they occur.
Thanks in advance,
Dee

**WaHoOoO!** · 11-24-2004, 04:14 PM

It's not valid. One <img> tag is missing the required "alt" attribute. If you have no real alt text, then just do alt="" to solve it. Other than that, it checks out.

**Dee** · 11-24-2004, 05:06 PM

Oh right, geddit now!
Thanks all for your help.

**NateDogg** · 11-24-2004, 09:14 PM

Place this doctype declaration at the top of your code and everything should work out perfectly.

HTML Code:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

You can find more info regarding DocType Declarations on http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_doctype.asp

**celticbrue** · 11-25-2004, 06:08 AM

Hi,

It is apparent you are setting yourself up in business as a web designer.

I don't wish to be rude, but if you are unable to understand how to use the W3C validator (or what validation is all about!), how are you going to properly advise clients/potential clients on what is best for their needs, disability legislation, SEO, Hosting plans etc etc?

I have checked your page in the validator myself and there are eight HTML 4 Transitional errors. XHTML 1.0 transistional is now widely regarded as the industry standard and your code falls well below par when checking against this.

I really hate giving negative feedback, but feel it is important that those embarking upon a career as a web designer are fully aware of the level of service they need to offer clients. There is a lot more to web design than owning a copy of Dreamweaver and being able to throw together a few images and some text that looks nice. Almost anyone can do that.

Ian

**Minaki** · 11-25-2004, 08:56 AM

Quote:

There is a lot more to web design than owning a copy of Dreamweaver and being able to throw together a few images and some text that looks nice. Almost anyone can do that.

I totally agree. I've been saying it for years. I think one of the major downfalls of the web was the common misconception that anyone can design a website. I think that's why 90% of the web is just rubbish sites.

**Dee** · 11-26-2004, 12:04 PM

To Ian and especially Minaki,

FYI, I have sucessfully created several websites. Maybe my code isn't perfect but it gets the job done and people are always pleased with the finished product. I am totally self taught due to financial restrictions and only recently acquired Dreamweaver after years of hand coding HTML

The reason I asked about Doctype was because it's been one of those things that I haven't been totally sure as to its meaning. I know about code validation but thought maybe Doctype referred to the document as a whole rather than the code contained within. You may raise your eyebrows and scratch your heads at my stupidity but, believe it or not, there are people out there who are not as knowledgeable as you.

Sorry for not being perfect. Perhaps I should spend several years learning everything about web design and then come back and belittle new posters by making snide remarks, but then again, perhaps not as this would make me look like a smug, pompous ***.

Other posters managed to be civil and helpful. Why bother with this forum if all you can add are insults rather than constructive comments.

This was my first question on this forum and it will now be my last. Thanks for making me feel welcome.

**celticbrue** · 11-27-2004, 12:05 AM

Dee,

My submission was not intended to belittle or make you appear stupid although, having just re-read my post, I can see why you would think that. Sorry for causing offence.

What I was trying to get across is that there is more to setting yourself up as a web design professional than just coding or presentation or any number of other things. A truly professional business will have to possess knowledge on a wide range of subjects within the Internet/Web Design sphere. This makes it incredibly difficult for individuals to make much of a mark, as no one person can be expected to be an expert in all fields.

Like you, I am completely self taught, having learned from books, magazines and trial and error. I still hand code all my web pages in Notepad and personally, would recommend EVERY html coder to do the same as it gives complete freedom from extraneous and unnecessary code.

My tactlessness in referring to your apparent lack of knowledge in relation to the DOCTYPE reference is because it was one of the first things I learned about when starting to code HTML. Essentially the DOCTYPE tells the user's browser HOW to render the page. The absence of a DOCTYPE or an incomplete or out-dated DOCTYPE can cause rendering problems and the pages may not appear how you wish them to. The DOCTYPE must be included on every page of the website for the page to validate. More detailed information can be found here

You will see that this is my 100th post. The vast majorityof these have been aimed at helping others with their problems because I do understand that everybody has to learn sometime. In this case I have been given a kick in the arse and will remember to be more tactful in the future but, the fact remains that it is very difficult to offer even constructive criticism in the written form without upsetting somebody.

You say you won't be back, but I hope that is not the case - without people like us, forums like this would not exist.

Good luck with your venture and as a free bit of advice, get some knowledge on Accessibility Legislation, it is the next big thing in web design business.

Ian.

**darkmirror** · 11-27-2004, 04:52 AM

Hi,
I don't normally post on forums, I prefer to lurk as the amenable exchange between developers is a usually a rewarding experience. I've just come across this forum and feel compelled to reply to some of the posts on this thread.
I am a senior systems developer with ten years experience in Enterprise Software development. I have trained and mentored some highly proficient developers and I am personally quite shocked at the arrogant response to what is a perfectly valid question.
In my experience this kind of behaviour and criticism is indicative of the barely competent developer who seeks to aggrandise there own limited abilities by knocking those of others. As a rule they are terrible people to work with.
Fortunately it is not difficult for an experienced developer, manager or client to see through such antics.
When hiring developers or designers I would be much more impressed by someone who is prepared to show initiative when faced by a problem, (i.e. seek a solution or ask for help as Dee has done) than someone who thinks they know it all.
A good example of this attitude is the "I hand code everything in notepad" approach. I am primarily a Java developer so I hand code everything. However I am not afraid to employ the use of tools such as a good IDE to help me out. The aim of any professional developer is of course to deliver a product of the highest quality in the shortest space of time. Saying I "only use notepad" is the kind of macho rubbish I'd expect from an inexperienced beginner. It might impress someone who is new to the game, but anyone of experience would just smile.
A really good example of this attitude is the way that Minaki has signed her post in a very large font with MCP in capital letters. "I have the right to criticise people, I've passed a Microsoft exam". I wanted to look at your website, but it appears to be down at the moment. I'd be interested to know if you "hand code in notepad" too.
After ten years of developing there are times when I still get stuck, when I am so embroiled in a problem that I can't see the forest for the trees. In such cases I may turn to a colleague for a second opinion, and quite often the problem is something simple. We generally have a laugh about it and get on with the job.
I must warn you that if you conduct yourself with this level of arrogance you are setting yourself up for a fall, perhaps one that may adversely affect your career.
DM

**WaHoOoO!** · 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dee

FYI, I have sucessfully created several websites. Maybe my code isn't perfect but it gets the job done and people are always pleased with the finished product. I am totally self taught due to financial restrictions and only recently acquired Dreamweaver after years of hand coding HTML

I'm self taught as well...that has nothing to do with it. As for "getting the job done," yes...it may get the job done, but is it the best way to do it? I mean...let's say I use a specific style many times throughout a document, is it better to reuse the <font> tag 20 times or to create a stylesheet?

Just trying to make a point...don't hate me *raises flame shield*

**Dee** · 11-27-2004, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WaHoOoO!

I'm self taught as well...that has nothing to do with it. As for "getting the job done," yes...it may get the job done, but is it the best way to do it? I mean...let's say I use a specific style many times throughout a document, is it better to reuse the <font> tag 20 times or to create a stylesheet?

Just trying to make a point...don't hate me *raises flame shield*

The reason I said I was self taught was to explain why I wasn't sure what Doctype meant. IOW, not being taught by professionals could mean that self taught people might not come across and understand single every aspect of web design.

In answer to your last point, of course it is better to use a stylesheet rather than manually typing all the attributes of every single font tag. Getting the job done was meant as a way of saying that even if the code isn't perfect, it is still possible to design good websites.

**faze1** · 06:42 PM

I agree,

But ultimatly Dee, I feel you have said nothing that needs to be defended. Not one of us here knows everything. The more you work at it and particapte in fourms like this one the more you will learn, after all this is why forums like this exist.

When it comes down to it I couldn't agree with darkmirror more and personally I am impressed that after gaining a few years of expierence you have decided to revisit the esoteric world of doctypes. With all of the confusing components to web design I have found that doctypes is often put to the back burner. Now while I dont agree with this, I can understand how this happens. I think it is commendable that you obviously have been doing this for some time, have learned some tricks and have decided it is now time to go back and revisit doctypes. It seems many people, after becoming proficient at webdesign, be it handcoding or some form of wysiwyg, develop a certain arrogance and turn on the idea of compliance.

I think the main point is, while your code is not perfect, you are doing what you can to strive towards prefection. And I hope everyone can agree, there is nothing wrong with that.

Good luck,

**Dee** · 11-28-2004, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faze1

I agree,

But ultimatly Dee, I feel you have said nothing that needs to be defended. Not one of us here knows everything. The more you work at it and particapte in fourms like this one the more you will learn, after all this is why forums like this exist.

When it comes down to it I couldn't agree with darkmirror more and personally I am impressed that after gaining a few years of expierence you have decided to revisit the esoteric world of doctypes. With all of the confusing components to web design I have found that doctypes is often put to the back burner. Now while I dont agree with this, I can understand how this happens. I think it is commendable that you obviously have been doing this for some time, have learned some tricks and have decided it is now time to go back and revisit doctypes. It seems many people, after becoming proficient at webdesign, be it handcoding or some form of wysiwyg, develop a certain arrogance and turn on the idea of compliance.

I think the main point is, while your code is not perfect, you are doing what you can to strive towards prefection. And I hope everyone can agree, there is nothing wrong with that.

Good luck,

Thanks, I will stick around because there are people here like yourself who are willing to help, no matter how 'simple' the question might be.
Cheers!
Dee

**Rincewind** · 11-28-2004, 12:04 PM

My teachers always said, "The only stupid question, is the question not asked." So Dee should ask and should not be critisized for asking. Nobody knows everything. Especially in a fast moving, complex arena like web design. In such a field it's not important how much you know, but rather knowing how much you don't know. Cause then when you need to know what you don't know you can ask and find out.

**WaHoOoO!** · 11-28-2004, 09:19 PM

There are no stupid questions, just a lot of inquisitive idiots.

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