I'm confused?

You just said the other day that you could make things work in IE without Hacks
or special code.

What? Did you lose your magic omnipotent CSS Wand????

I don't anyone has ever said that in some case conditional stylesheets are needed for IE.

Just the "hacks" are not required at all

Anything that has to be placed in a code sequence to modify the code in any way to get it to work in a specific environment or situation is a HACK.

So would code that could use a different function syntax to connect to Oracle, MSSql or MYSql databases to produce portable code be a "hack" because it would be targeting a a "different environment"?

Originally Posted by chrishirst

So would code that could use a different function syntax to connect to Oracle, MSSql or MYSql databases to produce portable code be a "hack" because it would be targeting a a "different environment"?

Any variation to a base piece of code that has to be created to make that code work for a specific environment is a HACK...

I write a web site that works on 7 browsers just fine.
I have to write special code to make it work on Exploder.

That code is a HACK!

In your database scenario, if your database works on 12 file structures and
you have to write variations to get it to work with Oracle or SQL, those variations are hacks. Even if you incorporation those variations as Options.

This is one of the reasons I don't use Javascript.

1. It FORCES users who don't want to to turn it on in their Browser.
2. It doesn't work the same on all Browsers.

I guess your working world is somewhat limited and controlled then, if you have no need to create applications that can run in several different environments.
Personally I prefer to create applications that are flexible and adaptable and do not require a controlled working space to work in.
If by your standards it makes me a "code hacker" then so be it.

Hey Chris,

Both you and LNR have declared here that you never use hacks to make things work with IE and that is simply not true. Call them Conditional Stylesheets or any other thing you want, but they are still hacks.

As for me, the only "programming" I have ever done was long ago in Basic, Cobol, DBase, Foxpro and more recently a little in Access. As for web design, I have always kept my designs simple and green with little to no extra code requirements.
Minimal Javascript,CGI and PHP. Never any Java, Flash, or anything else that requires a plugin except for some sound files when I had The Cemetery Shop going 2000-2003.

I code all my sites where possible to work on as many browsers as possible and one of the things I have quickly grown to detest about CSS is that it forces me to include code to keep certain browsers happy. That is a pain in the butt.

I hope you love having to code and keep all the little specialty situations happy.
I'm glad it makes your day. Carpe Dium!

Lovely debate, though entirely semantic. But it has little to do with what the OP was asking, so now it's here.

tim

As for me, the only "programming" I have ever done was long ago in Basic, Cobol, DBase, Foxpro and more recently a little in Access. As for web design, I have always kept my designs simple and green with little to no extra code requirements.

Most of which are "controlled environments", as they only have to work within their own confines, and as such have no need to employ methods to allow for alternate installations.

COBOL in particular only ever ran on a mainframe and the output sent to dumb terminals, and the mere thought of COBOL brings back some "horrific" memories of getting code written for a UNIVAC or IBM to run on a ICL implementation, fortunately it was only for a course assignment and not the accounting system of a company.

"hacks" from my point of view are the use of invalid or "dirty" code that makes use of a "bug" or "undocumented feature" to have a section of code ignored (or used).
The use of valid code to detect a system footprint and reroute accordingly is a practice that in an ideal world would be uneccessary but given the diversity of systems that may be accessing your application is required to ensure it is accessible by as many clients as possible.
I class using conditional comments in the same light as <noscript> elements for UAs without scripting capabilities or alt attributes to provide informstion to UAs that do not support image rendering.

I begged to differ, there was a PC version of COBOL, I used it while in college so I could do my homework at home and not have to fight for Mainframe time.

Hacks became associaled with dirty code only because of "hackers." Go back to the early days and all code that had to be created to make something work outside the "box" was called a hack. Undocumented features I believe are called HOOKS.

Microsoft is notorious for not releasing their hooks to outside developers.

Noscript would fall somewhere in between I think. though I won't split that hair too far.....it's still pretty much a hack.

Ah Ok, PCs weren't even a glimmer in IBMs eyes when I last "meddled" with COBOL.

It's the bugs that are undocumented "features"

"Hooks" are what the entry points into the Windows core functions are known as, so that third party software can "hook into" Windows functions and these are well documented in the MSDN documentation that a registered developer has access to.

" It's the bugs that are undocumented "features"

Now you're bringing Hiccups into the discussion.

"Ah Ok, PCs weren't even a glimmer in IBMs eyes when I last "meddled" with COBOL."

Comeon now Chris, don't go yurning for the days of Pony Tails, Punch Cards and Ding Dongs.......

I once turned down an $80,000 job with Walmart. Their lousy POS system is all COBOL. I guess they can't find people who still know COBOL and want to live in Arkansas.

I still have the pony tail although somewhat thinner these days (that only applies to the ponytail BTW )

And if I ever get to the nether regions of the <ahem> "archive" there's probably some punch cards lurking about somewhere in there.

Originally Posted by chrishirst

I still have the pony tail although somewhat thinner these days (that only applies to the ponytail BTW )

And if I ever get to the nether regions of the <ahem> "archive" there's probably some punch cards lurking about somewhere in there.

Punch cards - bloody hell that takes me back to school, spending weeks programming our "computer" to sort them into different piles

lol - I still have a pony tail as well, only extends half way down my back nowadays though