Im wondering about this whole "designing with tables" deal. w3schools says tables are for data, which makes total sense to me.

So my question is, wouldn't I just be better off learning xhtml and css, and coding with notepad?

Tables slow the loading process of a webpage which means the content doesn't display untill the table structure is downloaded. Thats why you get a lot of people who say not to use tables for layout purposes, the best way to layout your page is through <div> tags.

It is recommended that you start to use XHTML and CSS as I believe W3C are steadily phasing out regular HTML in favour of XHTML. Unless you know how to code in XHTML properly, you might want to use WYSIWYG Editors (e.g Dreamweaver) untill you can code in XHTML without having to rely on design view.

Hope this helps

XHTML/CSS is the way forward, all new sites should really be designed to these standards for a number of reasons...

What you use to actually create the pages is entirely your own preference - most modern WYSIWYG editors can generate XHTML, although it usually requires a bit of twweaking after. The sort of people who code in Notepad are the sort of people who like to have 100% control over their code.

I agree with Cypher and Minaki. You might use Dreamweaver's Code View or another program that highlights code at the beginning just to make it a bit easier to see where you have made mistakes.

Anthony I'm going to make it unanimous. I prefer a code editor other than notepad for some of the features, but I'm all for habd coding with xhtml and css. While many sites are still coded with a table based layout there are a variety of reasons why a css based layout is better and like Minaki said it's the way forward.

Well, I have frontpage 2003, but haven't used it a whole lot. I guess I could start with using that, since it has the design view, right?

Tables tend to lagg, or hmm how do u say it take 4 ever to load the page so imagine if every page had tables like dozens hehe good luck w/that but n e ways dont use em jus center em or use align css.

Oh I should also mention that for Search Engine reasons you should use table-less design. Tables are tough for spiders to search through. They also take away much of the meaning behind the design. I would avoid MS products if possible since they are notorious for having poor coding conditions, although, I myself have never used FP2003 so I can't back my statement up.

I don't like frontpage. It seems like it wants you to make tables. I think Im going to just wing it, and go for notepad for right now. Im just trying to redo a simple affiliate website. It doesnt have any pics/logos whatsoever, and its pretty much all done with colored boxes, and text. Really cheesy.

I should be back cussing notepad within the month......just kiddin. (or am I?)

Thanks guys.

I would avoid MS products if possible since they are notorious for having poor coding conditions, although, I myself have never used FP2003 so I can't back my statement up.

I wouldn't go that far. Front Page is pretty bad at coming up with good code, as is the Office suite (they weren't really designed for making websites - just pages that can be opened in a web browser). MS Visual Studio 2005 is a godsend.

I'm not a big user of Microsoft software. I do run XP, but I generally use alternatives to their products. I agree though with Minaki that it's unfair to say all MS products are bad or to stay away from them. Most of their products work fine, especially for their intended market.

Now I will say that I don't think FrontPage produces good code. I've never really used it myself, but I have gone in to work on sites that were created with it and there's an awful lot of excessive code.

If you really want to use a css layout I think for the moment it means hand coding. I'm by no means a WYSIWYG expert, but I think all will layout your design in a table. It's an easier way for them to create the code though I imagine at some point they'll provide options for css layouts.

Oh I should also mention that for Search Engine reasons you should use table-less design. Tables are tough for spiders to search through

Nope. Just a myth.
SE indexers have no problems at all with tables. There are many good reasons not to use tables, Search engines aren't one of them.

Yep I should have mentioned that as well. Search engines are fine with tables. In fact they're fine with a lot of poor code as well since they need to be. I've seen many people say that css layouts are better for search engines and while I belive there's a lot of good reasons to use a css layout, search engines aren't one of those reasons.

csss layouts are way better but thats just my opinion

I just have to say something:

I recommend using XHTML and CSS, as with many others. (Read my signature too!)

I would also like to say that Dreamweaver can be a bit annoying, since it's constantly nagging about things in the CSS and XHTML-source that won't work with Netscape 4.0 and/or 6.0. LIKE I CARE! I seriously mean that those who still use those browsers must be demented, when we have brilliant modern browsers like FireFox and Opera.

I'm rather new in the lane of coding, but after about 5 or 6 attempts with various way of trying to make a website, and since all of them failed, I decided learning HTML would be the way to go for me. (I've even been in on frames, but that went downhill when I deleted something I was supposed to have. Used only design-view for that job). Now on the other hand, I use only code-view, and use Safari/Opera to debug and check. Very simple once you understand the way it works, it's simple and you could learn the vasics of XHTML on a day or two.

Happy coding!

The best reason to stick with CSS is because it's easier to edit. Less code=less confusion. Of course, there are many other reasons. It doesn't mean that tables should never be used though. Just don't use them for layout.

As far as xhtml....well...the verdict, at least for me, is still out. I vaugely know what it's for, but I haven't looked at it enough to tell whether or not it's better than html.

Originally Posted by Twinrehz

I would also like to say that Dreamweaver can be a bit annoying, since it's constantly nagging about things in the CSS and XHTML-source that won't work with Netscape 4.0 and/or 6.0. LIKE I CARE! I seriously mean that those who still use those browsers must be demented, when we have brilliant modern browsers like FireFox and Opera.

Quoted for truth. You will be assimilated. Resistance if futile. Firefox is now at 24.5% on w3schools.com now. I've seen sites where it's as high as 40%. spreadfirefox.com has collected a wide range of browser stats from other sites.

I went through the whole table/vs CSS thing on a website recently. After researching it thoroughly and reading W3com's stuff on accessibility where in Firefox the printing did not stay within the boxes, but did in IE, I decided that CSS wasn't quite up to the task quite yet. After all if the group pushing it can't even get their pages to look decent in IE + Firefox how could I, a novice, succeed?

Maybe I was being overly depressive but it seemed to me from other articles more hacks were necessary using CSS unless you just decided that you would only care about your site's looks in one browser. Hacks I believe can cause problems in the great white future when finally all browsers behave themselves. (Dream on, huh?) I ended up using a sort of mixture as I truly do love CSS and think that it is the wave of the future. I just want my pages to display decently in the most common browsers and I hate code that makes the display jump around or run out of boxes.

I am in the process of switching my website to just css, div layers and php includes. I LOVE IT! I was in the olden days of tables and iframes and it was ridiculous. Just the sheer amount of code I have been able to get rid of is amazing and sooooo much easier! I highly recommend anyone to get switch over. XHTML is great as well. It is easy to learn and is the future, so why not do change? I have never found one instance where I have not been able to what I wanted to with css and such. Tables are a thing of the past as far as layouts go. GET RID OF THEM!