A friend of mine just emailed me about this. He says it's "only" $300, but to get the two or three other memebers in the suite it's a part of, he thinks this will give him the ultimate web platform. Now I haven't tried the software, only looked at the main page describing it, but I don't see anything ground breaking.

Has anybody played with the software? Can you tell us what it's like? Are there compelling features, things you can't do without Expression? I realize there's a 60 day trial, but I don't like installing and later uninstalling things, and I really can't see myself spending the $300, so I'm hoping others can chime in here with their experience?

Finally, would I be wrong to tell my friend he's better off spending a week reading tutorials than hundreds of dollars on software?

Heh heh -- your little buddy, "Billy-Bob Gates" strikes and ropes in another unsuspecting fool ... don't know when people are going to stop believing the sales drivel that comes out of MicroStoopid's cubicles.

In the War of the Web Designer tools, Microsoft has two battles to fight. The first is to prove that their new product is as good as, or better than, Dreamweaver. The second larger battle is winning mind share. Rightly or wrongly, Microsoft has not gained great support from the professional designer community for products such as FrontPage. I mean, let's face it, as a professional designer, if you saw someone trying to sell themselves as a Web Designer but they used FrontPage to do all of their work, you were likely to snicker to yourself and pass off the "would be" designer. Close, mate, but no cigar. That's pretty much a no-brainer!

Microsoft has to prove that Expression Web Designer is a better product that Dreamweaver not by inches but by leaps and bounds. (Yeah; when Hell freezes over.)

There is no mistake that Adobe and Microsoft are setting the battle field and will square off against each other. In this new war of Web designer tools, Microsoft is looking a lot like David and Adobe is looking like a limber and strong Goliath.

Let the rumble begin

I've got a mixed relationship with Dreamweaver, but lately I think it's in my best interest to use it as little as possible. I use Notepad++ ( free, open source, wonderful ) instead. This means doing my code by hand, although I get syntax highlighting, folding regions, all that great stuff. Every now and then I check in FireFox, and when things don't work out the way I want them, FireBug is a great tool to figure out why.

That sounds like a lot of work, and in some ways it is. On the other hand, a lot of the time, I can type out the particular attribute or property I want faster than I can do it through a UI. The two things I miss are spell check, and IntelliSense, which is the best coding invention since coffee.

Anyway, I had a look at the Expression page from MSDN, and I don't really see anything compelling. On the other hand, I've heard good things from people who've used it, so I'll probably download the trail and at least give it a fair shot. But it's going to have to be really good to get my $300. On the other hand, the way I code my site is a bit unique, so your mileage should vary.

I use Expression Web. I migrated from FrontPage to EW because my web host was not going to support web bots after a certain date. I wanted to migrate into .net anyway so I thought that EW would be the way to go. I downloaded the beta version and I like Expression Web. The one thing that I wasn't sure I needed was the CSS wizard. However it turns out that's what I like most about it. One thing I had problems with was when the Beta version expired. I purchased the EW upgrade for $99 and tried to install it. I ran into a major problem when doing this. You need to uninstall the BETA version of EW and any Office 2007 programs or components prior to installing the upgrade. When I tried to do this I couldn't uninstall the beta version. I was up pretty late trying to find a way to uninstall so I could install. I finally figured out how to do it. If anyone is interested in how to do this you can find the solution in our webmaster tools section entitled: Microsoft Expression Web Beta won't uninstall!

Although I had such a problem installing it I do like it. I haven't ventured into the .net tools yet but plan to do so when I can.

Well that's my 2 cents worth.

Although everyone has there own opinion of Front Page, I do not take information as Travel Agent gave to you as very helpful, but a complete dislike of Microsoft which provides a bias of the facts. I do agree with a little of his comments, however, we all do not have the funds to purchase Dreamweaver or its suite of tools. Although I have Dreamweaver 2004 MX suite, I very seldom use it. Why because I found that a combination of very inexpensive tools does the job just as well if not better. The key is to be comfortable with the tools you pick and know how to really use them. I'm 64 years of age, and enjoy doing web pages. I still learn new things every day, and have made a lot of money using Front Page in combination with those other inexpensive tools. Do I know everything NO, but I know enough to seek advise from others and decipher what info they give. If you like Front Page, don't let someone tell you your stupid for using it. Find out the reasoning behind the comment. Ask others.

John: I might actually be able to answer this more conclusively by the end of the month (one of my clients is looking at upgrading some of their PCs to Office 2K7, so I might get to play with it then and tell you what it's all about.)

Hopefully, you can wait that long (and they'll upgrade, as I suspect they will.)

Mind you, I'm in ForrestCroce's boat. I rock an old text editor that colour codes my stuff (Allaire Homesite, pre-Macromedia buyout and subsequent bloating and discontinuation of the product), a copy of Photoshop, 7 years of custom coded functions and subs for ASP, Access (SQL Server if I really need it), and my own ingenuity.

It's going to take a lot to convince me, as it would you, John. FrontPage is MS's worst product IMHO, Dr*amw*av*r is nothing more than a product in the long line of useless crap that spawned a legion of Macrowhores that couldn't build a site for a business if their lives depended on it, and I'm not gonna use anything else that uses the word WYSIWYG other than in the context of "is not necessary for the operation of our product." CODE WARRIORS UNITE!

WebGuy07: in case you're wondering about my biases, I have nothing against Microsoft as a company (I probably champion their stuff as much as anyone around here). I have a big problem with Macromedia products as they have a tendency to promote laziness, as well as bloated code and websites that go way beyond serving a useful purpose (see 2advanced.com for a really good example of that). FrontPage also has a habit of creating bloated code in the interest of making things easy.

Like you said, though, the right tools for the right job. I can respect that, as long as the result is something that's user-friendly and coded cleanly (I never judge on aesthetics because beauty is in the eye of the beer holder). You start creating bloated or proprietary code, though, and you're gonna be hearing about it from me.

Originally Posted by WebGuy07

Although everyone has there own opinion of Front Page, I do not take information as Travel Agent gave to you as very helpful, but a complete dislike of Microsoft which provides a bias of the facts. I do agree with a little of his comments, however, we all do not have the funds to purchase Dreamweaver or its suite of tools. Although I have Dreamweaver 2004 MX suite, I very seldom use it. Why because I found that a combination of very inexpensive tools does the job just as well if not better. The key is to be comfortable with the tools you pick and know how to really use them. I'm 64 years of age, and enjoy doing web pages. I still learn new things every day, and have made a lot of money using Front Page in combination with those other inexpensive tools. Do I know everything NO, but I know enough to seek advise from others and decipher what info they give. If you like Front Page, don't let someone tell you your stupid for using it. Find out the reasoning behind the comment. Ask others.

Robert - you're not much older than I am; don't get me wrong ... for the most part, we need MS products; however, having worked several years for Billy-Bob and the Dobermans as a Programmer, I've earned the right to call 'em what I wish.

FrontPage, among MS programmers is commonly called the Fruit Program -- many people know it throws in numerous lines of completely useless code, and more often than not, doesn't validate ... "making alot of money with FP" doesn't impress me; FP wasn't the reason you made alot of money -- it was whatever you were selling!

I too, work with an "old" text editor that outperforms the FruitProgram any day, as it color codes everything for me and rarely gives me any coding errors ... now you know why I call them MicroSTOOPID.

Travel agent, anyone almost old I, has thebright to call FrontPage anything they desire. I cut my teeth programming in 5K of space then went into Areospace software development. I didn't state that I made money to impress you or anyone else. The statement was made fortify the statement, it take a combination of tools, but YOU must have confidence in the tools you decide to use. I myself hate the way FP always destroys my code structure. Makes a heck of aslot of extra work for me to keep good readable code. But it is what I'm most comfortable with. I thought Dreamweaver would be different, but ......
Have a good day.

Originally Posted by WebGuy07

Travel agent, anyone almost old I, has thebright to call FrontPage anything they desire. I cut my teeth programming in 5K of space then went into Areospace software development. I didn't state that I made money to impress you or anyone else. The statement was made fortify the statement, it take a combination of tools, but YOU must have confidence in the tools you decide to use. I myself hate the way FP always destroys my code structure. Makes a heck of aslot of extra work for me to keep good readable code. But it is what I'm most comfortable with. I thought Dreamweaver would be different, but ......
Have a good day.

LOL - sounds like we were both on the old "Trash 80's"; back when I was doing heavy COBOL, and before DOS was thought of.

I understood what you were saying and it's unfortunate so many were sucked into the FruitProgram; but I agree -- ya work with the tools you have; yet, that shouldn't stop oneself from looking at new and improved tools...

TravelGuy, I know this is not the place for this but I need to ask you but have you ever heard of Global Travel International? I'm trying to find something my wife could do at home, and I ran across this site. She wants to earn some extra money to pay off some bills and save money for a cruise.

Yeah, nicknames can be fun. A lot of DBAs and SQL programmers call Microsoft's MMC snap-in "Enterprise Mangler." It probably doesn't lend us much credibility, though.

The thing is, my friend is really psyched to buy the entire Expression suite from Microsoft. He can't stop talking about how powerful it is, how it's the way things are done now, how it builds standards-driven web sites, and so on. And every time I'm about to tell him "You have to know what web standards are to build sites that take advantage of them, no matter what program you use to build your pages." But I feel bad, and bite my tongue.

So I wonder if I'm succumbing to anti-Microsoft hysteria, or if I have a legitimate point in that Expression Web isn't going to be a magic cure-all?

I remember the president of our company stating at a board meeting, that DOS would never amount too much and PC's would never replace the Mainframe. I had a heck of a time countering that one.What we created was a Project Management System with a focus on government reporting standards

Originally Posted by WebGuy07

TravelGuy, I know this is not the place for this but I need to ask you but have you ever heard of Global Travel International? I'm trying to find something my wife could do at home, and I ran across this site. She wants to earn some extra money to pay off some bills and save money for a cruise.

Yes; I know all about them, and can guarantee that you and the wife should definitely avoid them like the plague -- trust me on this ... let me do a little research and come up with something more viable and trustworthy for both of you.

Update: I got the okay to load Office 2007 onto at least two machines that I'm going to purchase on behalf of my client. So I'll have an answer in no later than two weeks (I have to order...blech...IBMs.)

As far as presidents making dumb statements, I still remember the president of a company I worked for asking his network tech (before I figured out how to do more as a 17-year-old than this guy could as a 32-year-old) back in January 1995: "So, what do you think of the new Windows 95? We're going to put it on our PCs next week, I think."

For those who don't know why that's so funny, Windows was released in August 1995, not January.

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Yeah, nicknames can be fun. A lot of DBAs and SQL programmers call Microsoft's MMC snap-in "Enterprise Mangler." It probably doesn't lend us much credibility, though.

The thing is, my friend is really psyched to buy the entire Expression suite from Microsoft. He can't stop talking about how powerful it is, how it's the way things are done now, how it builds standards-driven web sites, and so on. And every time I'm about to tell him "You have to know what web standards are to build sites that take advantage of them, no matter what program you use to build your pages." But I feel bad, and bite my tongue.

So I wonder if I'm succumbing to anti-Microsoft hysteria, or if I have a legitimate point in that Expression Web isn't going to be a magic cure-all?

Ouch, LN -- this is what MS thrives on..."mass hysteria"...MS has millions to spend on advertising and has a PR firm who does an excellent job of touting their new products; you know -- "this is something you simply must have right now, and it will make your life easier - yada; yada; yada".

Don't bite your tongue - inform your friend; he'll thank you later.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Update: I got the okay to load Office 2007 onto at least two machines that I'm going to purchase on behalf of my client. So I'll have an answer in no later than two weeks (I have to order...blech...IBMs.)

As far as presidents making dumb statements, I still remember the president of a company I worked for asking his network tech (before I figured out how to do more as a 17-year-old than this guy could as a 32-year-old) back in January 1995: "So, what do you think of the new Windows 95? We're going to put it on our PCs next week, I think."

For those who don't know why that's so funny, Windows was released in August 1995, not January.

LOL - don't blame me; I was one of the programmers for Win95 (code-named "Chicago" at that time) ... you would've cringed hearing the screaming matches I had with Billy-Bob and The Dobermans; being a former Marine Drill Instructor, my voice was heard all over the MS Complex...

TaveelAgent, thanks for the advice. Will do nothing until your recommendation. Yes I know about Marine DI's. My son-in-law is a Marine at Pendelton. Was just there last weekend. He calls me a Marine want to be, I was a viet Nam vintag Seabee. 20 years worth. (please excuse the typos. I'm trying to type with one arm in a sling.

WebGuy - I wore the "brown and round" on the MCRD San Diego grinder; Semper Fi to your son-in-law, and it's no fun trying to type with one hand!

Check your PM for my recommendation -- thanks for your military service; I too pulled double-duty across the pond.

Originally Posted by travelagent

LOL - don't blame me; I was one of the programmers for Win95 (code-named "Chicago" at that time) ... you would've cringed hearing the screaming matches I had with Billy-Bob and The Dobermans; being a former Marine Drill Instructor, my voice was heard all over the MS Complex...

Wasn't it Cairo for a while? That's the one that never happened, right, with the (shelved) WinFS? Microsoft LOVES their code names!

Okay, I have to admit, Expression is better than I expected. Part of this is that my expectations were kind of low, but still, I'm impressed.

In the "write my code for me" mode, you can click an element, and a floating property sheet lists out all the attributes available for that elements, and lets you change them directly. This is an improvement over Dreamweaver, which tries to be easier to use in that only the attributes the programmer thought would most used are available from "write my code for me" mode. That's actually pretty big; I was thinking any 'wyswig' editor would probably be more time learning the UI than just knowing what attribute you want and typing it.

Also, in "write my code for me" mode, it has the same type of spell checking as Word, where misspellings are underlined in red. That's the one and only thing my open source editor won't do for me, and I'm not good with spelling. And they at least learned about stupid Microsoft-isms; when you past some text, you can paste just the text and not a lot of formatting code around it. Finally, in "I'll type my own code, thank you" mode, Intellisense is great!

On the down side, it keeps rewriting my code!!! I had to go all through the options to tell it tags should be able to span multiple lines ( for readability - I hate a dense cluster ). It puts line breaks in your text content, you can set the line width, but I haven't figured out how to turn it off completely.

Bottom line, it's really nice, a lot more than I expected, but it's not worth my $300. Of course, my site isn't really commercial ( it's a portfolio, and has got me a few portrait gigs, so it's kind of a grey area ), and I have a distrust of any wsywig editor since I broke my Dreamweaver profiles somehow, had to fix things by hand, and learned just how much code bloat there is. If it were less money, I'd buy it for the spell check in preview mode, and if I were doing web work full time, as my own business, I'd think a lot harder about it.