Before I join webmaster-talk.com, I was using FP with a tabled layout. After joining it and reading a lot now, I'm using Divs with CSS layout and html-kit for my work. It took me sometime to convert but believe me, I haven't regret it even once. After working this way for sometime, now it's much easier to upload new content, no more very strange results that I can't figure out why, no more garbage code and I can change THE WHOLE SITE look and feel in minutes (yes in minutes I can't believe it).

So I want to say THANK YOU for this forum and every body in here.

Glad you're happy and that your code is much smaller, mi hermano!

YAY!!! Another convert !!

I'm glad you have found the table-less method to be beneficial !

Congrats - sounds like you came to the right forum for correct advice!

I am starting to do the same.

Teaching myself tables were quick and easy. But starting to convert now .
I am currently making a website which I have used less tables then I normally would. (www.mamkartsport.com/vitality/).

There are a couple things I sat there trying to work out which got the better of me. So the main content in in a table, but I have customised the look with more CSS. .

Not long and it will be all CSS no doubt .

Originally Posted by Mitch_40

I am starting to do the same.

Teaching myself tables were quick and easy. But starting to convert now .
I am currently making a website which I have used less tables then I normally would. (www.mamkartsport.com/vitality/).

There are a couple things I sat there trying to work out which got the better of me. So the main content in in a table, but I have customised the look with more CSS. .

Not long and it will be all CSS no doubt .

Welcome, join the club

One thing I always wondered about. Calendars are as such tabular data, so should I use a table? I am currently doing so because it really looks to me like using CSS will be more work.

You could use a table for a calendar.. but I use CSS for calendars too, no more work than fussing around with tables !

LadynRed You really dont like tables do you...Lol

Originally Posted by dansgalaxy

LadynRed You really dont like tables do you...Lol

well who doesn't? There are so many CMS that I decided not to use even though they were perfect because they use tables... and then give you CSS options stylise. It's weird. Tables are so font tag.

Will probably switch to DIVs then unless there is a better recommendation. Just have to change my PHP quite a bit, but it'll be ok.

LadynRed You really dont like tables do you...Lol

I don't like tables for LAYOUT - they were never meant for that purpose, it's just that that's all we had to have even some control of layout 10 years ago. Now, with CSS, there is no reason to use tables for layout - except for being lazy, IMO.

Tables have their place - for TABULAR data, and a calendar could be classified as tabular data. However, there is a CSS alternative to that too.

Originally Posted by LadynRed

Now, with CSS, there is no reason to use tables for layout - except for being lazy, IMO.

funny, I use CSS (instead of tables) for layout precisely BECAUSE I am lazy.

Even when a layout looks like a table, if its not tabular data, forget the table and save time.
For example, my photo pages (http://willcode4beer.com/photos.jsp?set=sonora) look table-like but, because I'm a lazy bum, I do it with a list. This means I don't have to bother with stuff like, keeping track of how many items in the current columns before breaking to the next row (I dynamically generate the pages). A very simple loop can do the work.

Troble with me is for one thing what i supose is called my learning style. I can pick up visual stuff, like computer parts using software and all that quite easily and advance in it fast, but i find it hard to learn coding on my own. I have learnt what (X)HTML and css i know from (what i now know are out of date) Library books. i have borrowed LOADS (and paid the fines for being lates...) and most of them dont seem to talk abotu or give examples of DIVs for design and where i learnt at first to use tables for layout its just hard to try and learn how to use divs to do it.
Same with PHP i know very basic things but find it very very hard to advance and am hopeing to find some sort of class when i leave school (in bout a year) in college or something where i can learn it. i know if it was taught to me in this way i would think i could pick it up as fast as i do other stuff. Does anyone else have this problem?

Dan

Originally Posted by willcode4beer

funny, I use CSS (instead of tables) for layout precisely BECAUSE I am lazy.

LOL -- yes; some of us are lazy and let CSS do the work!

This means I don't have to bother with stuff like, keeping track of how many items in the current columns before breaking to the next row

Good point . I meant 'lazy' in the context of being too lazy to learn to code w/o tables

Originally Posted by LadynRed

Good point . I meant 'lazy' in the context of being too lazy to learn to code w/o tables

Yes, I'd say that's it - it's lazy if you already know how to do it one way (e.g. tables) and can't be bothered to learn the correct way (e.g. CSS).

From my observations, most seem to find that most things are much easier when you use CSS, it just requires a slight change of mindset to achieve.

I think it's more than just CSS vs. tables though - things like using labels and legends etc. in your forms, and paying more attention to validation, are important steps to take.

As I read through this thread I started to get concerned about LadynRed, but it sounds like she does know when to use a table (i.e. rather than trying to use CSS to re-produce a table)... but I'd disagree and say that a calendar is virtually about as tabular as you can get?

That said, even tables have additional markup that I didn't know about until I started to care more about these things - for example with your calendar you should use table headings <th> which I never used to bother about. Maybe everyone else did/does and it was just me that was slow to catch on?

You don't need to be concerned about me.. I've been doing this for a loooonnnggg time.

Originally Posted by LadynRed

You don't need to be concerned about me.. I've been doing this for a loooonnnggg time.

Not only have you been doing it for a long time, but you're also from the "Volunteer State" -- so I volunteer your "volunteer services" everywhere I can...

I was afraid about CSS when i was a kind of hit and run person. After knew CSS properties and values i thought i know CSS. But when it comes to Layout i was really struggling for hours to make the presentation looks similar in IE, FF and Opera. Then i throw out all the ideas, i know, about CSS and start from beginning. Now i am becoming a CSS guru.

Thanks to WMT Mods and Members

Originally Posted by dansgalaxy

Troble with me is for one thing what i supose is called my learning style. I can pick up visual stuff, like computer parts using software and all that quite easily and advance in it fast, but i find it hard to learn coding on my own. I have learnt what (X)HTML and css i know from (what i now know are out of date) Library books. i have borrowed LOADS (and paid the fines for being lates...) and most of them dont seem to talk abotu or give examples of DIVs for design and where i learnt at first to use tables for layout its just hard to try and learn how to use divs to do it.
Same with PHP i know very basic things but find it very very hard to advance and am hopeing to find some sort of class when i leave school (in bout a year) in college or something where i can learn it. i know if it was taught to me in this way i would think i could pick it up as fast as i do other stuff. Does anyone else have this problem?

Dan

You might be better off learning online. Most books are out of date by the time the ink hits the paper. There are tons of online tutorials. There are also lots of sites to help you learn.
For instance, the classic css Zen Garden. One simple XHTML page and thousands of people creating different designs with CSS. A List apart has lots of articles about XHTML and CSS, even bits of javascript for fun. Take a look at the code section. Eric Meyer (written a few books) keeps a pretty informative site as well (hit the css link).
For your PHP, there is endless information. Be sure to follow the newsgroup comp.lang.php.

The reality is, you can learn an order of magnitude more information on these subjects in the real world than you can in a class. In school, there isn't time to really get into depth, and you will be limited by slower students.