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My friend got ripped off by an overpriced consultant who built a site for her, with the code above. I cut out anything that might identify the site itself, because I don't want to give her a bad name or her business bad publicity.

But if you aren't careful, this code is what $1,500 gets you. I'm fixing this mess for free, best I can, just because my friend has no idea how to pick a good web coder, and it pains me that people are allowed to rip each other off like this.

For real, who would put a table inside a block quote inside another table??

I gotta admit, that's a first for me too. That's messed up.

$1500? Some people should be shot.

That html is painful to read....Who would be so cruel as to treat markup that way....I vote that we find the developer and hang them from a tree feet first then continually throw web standards books at them until they get the point.

Jamie

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

$1500? Some people should be shot.

Well, in fairness, she got about half a dozen pages for the price, plus the guy picked out a hosting platform for her, set up an account, uploaded the files - basically did everything but PAY for the hosting.

The bad news is there are half a dozen other pages that are all coded like this.

I understand people used nested tables, it's been the way things were done, and old habits die hard. But seriously I just can't even imagine why or how someone would put a table in a block quote in a table data cell. This is MUCH worse than tag soup, and I'm confounded trying to understand how this could happen. The jerk probably thought he was mad clever.

There should be some kind of standard. I'd be in jail if I tried to sell someone some open heart surgery, even if I DIDN'T over charge them.

thats bad, i would like ot think i code to a higher stand than that, but i still would not at the moment sell or do peoples sites for money, because i want to be a compelet pro and be able to do it to the best standard before o take money. i think its wrong to charge people that amount when ur not gd...

Dan

I'll go one better. We were contacted by a physician's practice that had paid to have a site built about a year ago. They told us that they paid $25,000 - yes 25 THOUSAND DOLLARS for this website. Soo.. we go look at the url -- ALL TABLES, not a single page validates, no doctype.. the usual 1995 code soup, there's no interactivity, no database connectivity, there's less than 20 pages on the site ! 25K for old crap and a mediocre design.. nothing at all outstanding about it. We were stunned that they'd actually pay that - and we build them for far, far less than that price tag and they get excellent quality and clean, accessible, valid code that's completely table free.

Thank you for the Tp John, much apprieciate.

WOW i think LNR just blew that out the water. im not sure what i find most amazing, someone having the balls to charge such a stupid figure for such c-rap or the fact that they stupidly paid the stupid figure for the crap.

i think people like this who charge 10 fold what the code could be worth (if they VERY lucky) are ripping of unknowing small businesses and people who know no better.

and im sure its illegal in someway.. Surely!?

its like selling a legless man shoes! - (sry couldnt think of a better thing )

i just find it so unbeliveable. which i think partly is because im a 15 y.o who wont pay nought. because i belive that alot of things should be free,

dont get me wrong i do doubt will in the future (when im making a gd amount to justify it) probally end up paying a GOOD desginer/coder to make me a template and that for my site(s)

(unless i somehow get some design skills.. unlikely..)

just out of curiousity LNR what did they charge them for the new well coded site?

Dan

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

For real, who would put a table inside a block quote inside another table??

Probably someone who's never looked at the code they're "writing?" One table would make more sense, with a left-most column to push everything over ... but in most html editors, including the one in this forum and in WordPress, when you click the indent right button, it creates a blockquote to do it for you. If you weren't using tables, this could make a bit of sense. Here's the part I don't get: <h1 align="center" class="bld"> Uh ... an h1 is an h1. Style it by overriding the element in css, not by assigning it a class and alignment. That's just abuse of code ... I don't suppose the consultant's name was Bill and lives in the Seattle area?

Originally Posted by dansgalaxy

and im sure its illegal in someway.. Surely!?

its like selling a legless man shoes! - (sry couldnt think of a better thing )

Selling water in the desert? Unfortunately even though you're completely right, this is a case of taking advantage of people who obviously don't realize they're being sold snake oil - and there's nothing wrong with that, we all have our own skills, not everybody understands markup - the problem is that this isn't "snake oil" in the legal sense. John said he'd be arrested if he tried to perform surgery, and that's true assuming he's not a doctor. But web designers aren't licensed in the same way; using deeply nested tables for layout isn't like selling a car with faulty brakes. Obviously some poor woman got robbed here, but not in the legal sense. Making it hard for people like our Lady in Red, who's both talented and honest.

The same problem, if you look at it as one, happens in photography. Probably somebody "wrote" that code in FrontPage, and then charged an overwhelming amount of money for it ... likely because that's what a real web developer would cost. Digital made photography cool, and anybody with a camera can put up a free ad on Craigslist offering to shoot a wedding for a mere $500 - in an industry where it costs about $2,500 for a decent quality photog - and get in over their head. They wind up producing photos that are about as elegant as the code you showed us.

And that code is baffling, by the way. I realize most html editors don't look at the surrounding tags and the structure that's already in the document when you click a button on the toolbar ... but if that's how this page was born, they really need to. And if someone wrote that by hand, they should be taken out and "stoned" with modern html/css books until they learn through osmosis.

I think I need to charge more for the sites I develop.

Originally Posted by LadynRed

I'll go one better. We were contacted by a physician's practice that had paid to have a site built about a year ago. They told us that they paid $25,000 - yes 25 THOUSAND DOLLARS for this website. Soo.. we go look at the url -- ALL TABLES, not a single page validates, no doctype..

Originally Posted by vangogh

I think I need to charge more for the sites I develop.

I worked in a company as a SQL developer years ago, and watched them spend half a million dollars on an all-Flash website they never deployed. They paid for it, though. It was developed on a Mac with filenames longer than 256 characters and couldn't even be served up properly from the company's Windows data center. Or at least that's what the IT manager said, I never had a chance to look into it.

That was the day I realized working 8-5 at a desk job means I'm in the wrong business.

It amazes me when I see people paying some of the prices they do and others balking at things so reasonable. I've had people come to me looking for a site for under $100 and thinking for anything above that I was trying to rip them off.

And then I hear people paying what might be reasonable prices ($1500) for a site to be developed for garbage and then see those same people deciding that all web designers are cheating them.

People need to do a little research before hiring a web designer just like they should do before hiring anyone for their business.

Originally Posted by vangogh

I think I need to charge more for the sites I develop.

Me too. I spend ages coming up with good designs and code when i could be thowing out crap for more!! How the hell did that man/woman who coded that sleep at night??

he probally brought a new bed....

It annoys me to think that some guy out there is laughing his way to the bank. I hope to God the guy at least thought the coding was good enough to charge that amount for, but I very much doubt he did.

Originally Posted by dansgalaxy

thats bad, i would like ot think i code to a higher stand than that, but i still would not at the moment sell or do peoples sites for money, because i want to be a compelet pro and be able to do it to the best standard before o take money. i think its wrong to charge people that amount when ur not gd...

Here we have a 15 year old kid with a better work ethic and sense of professionalism than a 50 year old so-called expert designer. I'd like to point out that even with the crappy code, the site worked, it just needs a face lift and some asp.net magic, and the guy has actually raised his rates. So I'm doing it for free to help a friend, but I'm also rambling away from what we're talking about.

Bad code is a sin. Bad ethics is a mortal sin. Dan has shown more better ethics, that he's actually trust-worthy and honest. This is how I can tell he has a bright future in this industry, if he wants one.

Which i do..

i just need to improve my graphic/design skill XD

Thanks for that glowing review John
Dan

I'd be in jail if I tried to sell someone some open heart surgery, even if I DIDN'T over charge them.

Did your friend survive this? Webmaster < Surgeon on the scale of importance of expertise and I would hate for there to be more laws and restrictions when knowledge can be easier spread and serve a better purpose.

I don't know **** about cars or home repair, but with the resources available I would never be screwed on a deal (at least in most cases). There are too many reviews, too many guides, too much information out there to be swindled.. The process of figuring out how to figure things out is an important one, though we have a tendancy to throw laws at everything to negatively enforce some higher moral principle.

Certainly you can still be 'hoodwinked' after doing your homework <- which is why I try to take it one step further and learn what it is I want done and do it myself (except surgery).

Originally Posted by highanddry

Did your friend survive this? Webmaster < Surgeon on the scale of importance of expertise and I would hate for there to be more laws and restrictions when knowledge can be easier spread and serve a better purpose.

This is a good point.

So where should the balance rest?

It shouldnt be laws etc but i think when you pay for it, you should as a buyer at least have some kind of service where REAL web pros can maybe like have a look and just say yea thats right or dont be stupid u should be paying half..

i think some kind of thing like this could work well.

Dan

o i love this thread i have got a whole light green bar out of it!! woot woot woot


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WARNING THIS POST CAN AND WILL CAUSE SEIZURES!!!*
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YAYAYAAAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY THREEE GRREEEN BARS!!!

you know im sad enough if i was 18 i would probally throw a party and get paraletic over getting TP! XD - is that sad ? o.0

* This warning is because when i did this before it was advised XD


EDIT: I just checked and im No. 11 !!! in TP

IVE JUST GOT HIGHER THAN TIM!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! XXDDD XXXX WOOOTTTOOTOOTOT YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAAYYAYA