Originally Posted by cbwm

Squirmy little communist, aren't ya. Let me bring you back to your talking points.

Why don’t you spend a couple of dollars and buy this book. Read it, learn something about Christianity in America from the beginning, get your facts straight and then come back and apologize to everyone for being an a**hole or better yet if you smart never come back and safe yourself from farther embarrassment.

Stephen Prothero





fastreplies

Whaaaaa. Come back Joder! I was just kidding! Seriously! I hate religion of all sorts! They are all evil, especially the Bibleheads! There is no god! There is no right or wrong, only thinking makes it so!

Haha Fast Replies. Now I'm hoping the fact that you put the name " Stephen Prothero" at the bottom of your post, doesn't mean you expect us to believe you ARE Stephen Prothero. Seriously.

The book looks interesting, and the author educated, so I think I will give it a read. Thanks.

P.S. Calling me an a**hole won't get your message across any better than calling me a Biblehead, poo poo pants, ca ca breath, or dudy(spelling?) head. Also, I think it better to be imbursed than to be reimbursed, so I will have to kindly decline your advice.

C'mon guys, let's not turn this into another Democrats Suck Thread.

I posted the map to provide some light-hearted humor to the forums, not to spark *yet another* political debate. I'm sure we can all agree to be civil here, right?

Originally Posted by jamestl2

C'mon guys, let's not turn this into another Democrats Suck Thread.

I posted the map to provide some light-hearted humor to the forums, not to spark *yet another* political debate. I'm sure we can all agree to be civil here, right?

What're you, some kinda commie?
(kidding, *hic* excuse me, what I meant to say was)
AMEN, BROTHER!!!

Joder, I've been thinking about this question you posed for awhile now. Not trying to stir the pot, as it were, but I think I have a good answer.

Originally Posted by joder

Why does the Bible support slavery? It finds it moral and says absolutely nothing against the practice. Jesus and Paul never speak out against it even when confronted with it......

Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, and his hand was heavily in the writing of the Constitution. Yet he owned slaves. We have extended the principles he wrote about to the descendents of the slaves. Is our modern interpretation of his writing incorrect? Should we discard these documents altogether? Is it impossible to derive meaning from an old document because there are things in it or older interpretations of it that we object to in the present?

Originally Posted by serandfae

Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, and his hand was heavily in the writing of the Constitution. Yet he owned slaves. We have extended the principles he wrote about to the descendents of the slaves. Is our modern interpretation of his writing incorrect? Should we discard these documents altogether? Is it impossible to derive meaning from an old document because there are things in it or older interpretations of it that we object to in the present?

I don't see the Declaration of Independence as a religious document that it's writers claimed was written by god. If the Bible's god was against slavery, then it looks like once in the bible he would have said, "slavery is wrong". But it is not recorded that it's god did. Look at how much human misery would have been avoided. I don't see any document as immutable or that it relies on the person who wrote it.

The reason this god didn't say so, was the bible is simply a book written by people who lived in their time and who each had their own purposes.

The Constitution was amended. The Bible hasn't been. It's adherents still claim it is a perfect document inspired by a perfect god. The Declaration of Independence and Constitution are imperfect yet contain values that are a part of Western society. Yet can be changed.

Why would I want to get meaning from the bible anyway. I don't see any reason to. I don't see any value in the bible.

EDIT:

It's really sad seeing people trying to defend their god not speaking out against slavery when the bible recored how concerned this god was about two type of material not being used in clothing or people picking up sticks on the Sabbath day.

Originally Posted by joder

I don't see the Declaration of Independence as a religious document that it's writers claimed was written by god. If it's god was against slavery, then it looks like once in the bible he would have said, "slavery is wrong". But it is not recorded that it's god did. Look at how much human misery would have been avoided. I don't see any document as immutable or that it relies on the person who wrote it.

The reason this god didn't say so, was the bible is simply a book written by people who lived in their time and who each had their own purposes.

No, neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution are religious documents; the former does mention God, though, and says He gave everyone inalienable rights. It could be argued God inspired him, just as it could be argued that God inspired the authors of the Bible. Apparently not enough, in Jefferson's case, to give up his slaves.
Most Christians do not consider the Bible to be infallible, it is inspired and written for a particular time. But the question was, do you throw out the baby with the bathwater for either document? Can insight not be gained, can no use be made of them?

Originally Posted by joder

The Constitution was amended. The Bible hasn't been. It's adherents still claim it is a perfect document inspired by a perfect god. The Declaration of Independence and Constitution are imperfect yet contain values that are a part of Western society. They can be changed.

The Bible hasn't been, but our interpretation of it has. The only ones who consider it perfect are the fundamentalists, and believe it or not they are in the minority.

Originally Posted by joder

Why would I want to get meaning from the bible anyway. I don't see any reason to. I don't see any value in the bible.

I'm not asking you to read it. Just because you don't see value in it does not mean that there is none in it. There's plenty I don't like in it, I take it in context. Still doesn't invalidate it as a whole. And I can tell you that there are whack-jobs in every system of belief, and I sure won't apologize for the ones in mine think, seeing as how I don't claim them.

Originally Posted by serandfae

But the question was, do you throw out the baby with the bathwater for either document? Can insight not be gained, can no use be made of them?

My answer still is, why should I use the bible anyway? Because you say it has some value? Because it makes you feel good?

Originally Posted by serandfae

I'm not asking you to read it. Just because you don't see value in it does not mean that there is none in it. There's plenty I don't like in it, I take it in context. Still doesn't invalidate it as a whole. And I can tell you that there are whack-jobs in every system of belief, and I sure won't apologize for the ones in mine think, seeing as how I don't claim them.

Tim, I've read and studied it a lot more than you have. In days past I was a conservative christian and did lay preaching. I researched into the Hebrew and Greek. I researched the history.

Just because you like the book doesn't mean anyone else does or that they think some god had anything to do with it. I don't know why your asking about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Why should I even care about the bible? I don't see anything except that it was written by people with no hocus pocus influences. You act like it is just so natural for people just to accept the bible.

Originally Posted by joder

My answer still is, why should I use the bible anyway? Because you say it has some value? Because it makes you feel good?

I don't recall having told you any book you just gotta read. That's really none of my business. I'm saying that if you want to invalidate it you'll have to do better than that.

Originally Posted by joder

Tim, I've read and studied it a lot more than you have. In days past I was a conservative christian and did lay preaching. I researched into the Hebrew and Greek. I researched the history.

I'm probably better read than you think; one of my early hobbies was debating conservative Christians--and I usually won. Just because conservative Christians view the Bible as immutable and infallible does not mean that all of us do. All religions evolve, and all have their throwbacks.

Originally Posted by joder

Just because you like the book doesn't mean anyone else does or that they think some god had anything to do with it. I don't know why your asking about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Why should I even care about the bible? I don't see anything except that it was written by people with no hocus pocus influences. You act like it is just so natural for people just to accept the bible.

It is of no consequence to me whether someone else likes the book or not, but I don't see what point there is in a crusade to devalue it either. The baby with the bathwater comment was that you can't throw out the whole book just because you find one thing wrong with it. No one here has pushed it on you. But, like I said, if you're going to trash it you'll have to come up with a lot better than, "It doesn't forbid slavery" and "Too many people take it too literally."

Originally Posted by serandfae

I don't recall having told you any book you just gotta read. That's really none of my business. I'm saying that if you want to invalidate it you'll have to do better than that.

I don't have to invalidate it. You need to work on your logic. You need to tell people why they should accept it. Obviously you can't. You claim yourself it has problems yet you can't explain them. BTW, Jesus saying people are going to be cast in hell for everlasting torment is worse than slavery. Does your Jesus have problems or the person who wrote Matthew?

This bible is a book that only promotes theocracy not democracy, never gives a medical cure or knows about the germ theory of disease yet claims many people are possessed by the devil. A book that points to the Earth being the center of the solar system if not the universe. Don't be surprised when people don't accept it.

And you will not answer the question of why someone should accept any part of the bible because you can't.

I mentioned the vast problems with the bible #1 because a person on this forum brought it up. Every day here in the U.S. people seek to shove it down others throats through attempting to introduce creationism and ID in the public school science classroom. There are people who want to force kids to listen to a prayer at school. There are judges who hang the ten commandments on their courtroom wall when some of those commandments are against our laws and way of life.

Jesus was right about one thing and it applies to the people who admire the bible, "they read but never understand".

Tim,

can you explain to me how come real intelligent people influenced by book that on their intellectual level they know makes no sense and by their own admission have more contradictory assertions than Swiss cheese and yet willing to blow out the world if others see that book as nothing more than a bad reading?

Do you think you would debate joder if that book never exist?


fastreplies

Originally Posted by fastreplies

Tim,
.......
Do you think you would debate joder if that book never exist?

Are you kidding? Yeah, I'd debate him. I can, I have, on a number of subjects.

Besides that, fast, I wasn't extolling the virtues of that book; I was pointing out that you can't devalue it either based on what's been said.

I don't think you have to worry about me trying to convert anyone. But if a debate is what you want, fire away, I'm ready....

I think Tim and I will have more debates in the future. I still have the philosophy thread bookmarked. (Bet Tim thinks I forgot about it). And still want to discuss some more Einstein. Time sometimes is not on my side. It's almost 10 pm and I am on a problem database call

If someone wants to believe the Bible that's fine. But it doesn't belong in the science classroom. On that Tim and I heartily agree. And it shouldn't be legislated in law.

I also think the Bible should be taught in school! Yes you heard that right. But as part of a comparative religion course along with other religions where beliefs aren't promoted.

Originally Posted by serandfae

I don't think you have to worry about me trying to convert anyone. But if a debate is what you want, fire away, I'm ready....

That debate will be confined to 2 phrases

You will say: I believe in God
And I will answer: I don’t



fastreplies

Whats so bad about slavery?

Get in a debate with me and find out, 'cause you will get pwned....

Tim (or Learning Newbie, whym, or any other liberal/moderate Christian ),

These are questions I would really be interested in knowing what Christians from a non-fundamentalist perspective think.

I would like to know, what criteria do you use to not accept parts of the Bible while accepting others? For instance, when the Bible says "The LORD (Hebrew YHWH)" ordered the killing of an entire people (Numbers 31), why do you think YHWH didn't order it?

When Jesus says " Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41) do you think that eternal torture is good morality or do you think Jesus didn't say that particular idea? If you think he didn't say it, what criteria do you use to determine what he said or didn't say?

Some of you have stated that you accept evolution. I take it to mean the scientific view of evolution. If you do, then you know death came upon the "world" 3.5 billion years before homo sapiens evolved. Since death coming through sin and saving from death is the central part of the Christian faith, how do you reconcile the two? In the Bible there was no animal death before man's sin.

Alright guys, no more of this:

Originally Posted by joder

do you think that eternal torture is good morality

Yes. But then again, I'm pro-death penalty. Also, I would say to equate the words "everlasting fire" to Eternal Torture requires a bit of interpretation. Some churches make the same equation, some do not. Interesting the verse in question is taken from the section of the bible where Jesus is telling people to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, and to be kind to strangers. To focus in on those few words, interpret them, forget all the surrounding verse , and judge god as evil or without morals seems a bit off.

Originally Posted by cbwm

Yes. But then again, I'm pro-death penalty. Also, I would say to equate the words "everlasting fire" to Eternal Torture requires a bit of interpretation. Some churches make the same equation, some do not. Interesting the verse in question is taken from the section of the bible where Jesus is telling people to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, and to be kind to strangers. To focus in on those few words, interpret them, forget all the surrounding verse , and judge god as evil or without morals seems a bit off.

So I take it you ignore part of the verse? Or does feeding a few hungry override the part about "everlasting fire"? I thought everlasting was everlasting and fire was fire. But maybe he meant to say "I will love you forever too"?