Originally Posted by serandfae

Get in a debate with me and find out, 'cause you will get pwned....

Tim, can't you see this man has been suffering from Daltonism?



fastreplies

Originally Posted by joder

So I take it you ignore part of the verse? Or does feeding a few hungry override the part about "everlasting fire"? I thought everlasting was everlasting and fire was fire. But maybe he meant to say "I will love you forever too"?

How some religions take it: Be good to others... or burn in hell.

How other religions take it: Be good to others... or you won't goto heaven (death is everlasting).

How I interpret it: to be good to other is moral and right, to be bad to others is wrong

I know, loose interpretation, but that is my choice. I guess I don't qualify for that "Fundamentalist of the Year" award.

Originally Posted by cbwm

How some religions take it: Be good to others... or burn in hell.

How other religions take it: Be good to others... or you won't goto heaven (death is everlasting).

How I interpret it: to be good to other is moral and right, to be bad to others is wrong

I know, loose interpretation, but that is my choice. I guess I don't qualify for that "Fundamentalist of the Year" award.

You see. You gave YOUR answer as a non-fundamentalist which was what I was interested in. I just find it interesting how people can loosely interpret the bible. Some people can and don't see why others don't accept their interpretation. Even liberals/moderates. Of course, just do good and don't do bad to others is not unique to christianity or even religion.

Hey, I got nothing against belief in Hellfire. Some people need that. I believe we have less crime for belief in the death penalty.

Originally Posted by cbwm

... is taken from the section of the bible where Jesus is telling people to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, and to be kind to strangers.

My 7 years old love to share his sandwich or cola with his friends and every time we walk by homeless, he ask me for a dollar so he can give it to less fortunate among us. He has no idea what is the Bible but it doesn’t stop him from doing things that he feel by heart are right to do.

I don’t need Bible or Christ to teach me rights and wrongs and surely I don’t need to learn that from Priest, Rabbi, Mullah or some religious fanatics whose life is limited to “What would Jesus do?”


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cbwm, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that you don't believe in a literal hellfire but that the concept is useful to keep people from doing bad things?

If so, you might want to read up on Plato and the modern philosopher Leo Strauss. They would have both agreed with you. In fact Leo Strauss had a great influence on Dick Cheney and other leading philosophical neoconservatives. The idea that you advocate that people have their views such as hellfire even though you yourself don't accept them was a concept Strauss advocated and he termed the "noble lie".

Originally Posted by joder

Tim (or Learning Newbie, whym, or any other liberal/moderate Christian ),

These are questions I would really be interested in knowing what Christians from a non-fundamentalist perspective think.

I would like to know, what criteria do you use to not accept parts of the Bible while accepting others? For instance, when the Bible says "The LORD (Hebrew YHWH)" ordered the killing of an entire people (Numbers 31), why do you think YHWH didn't order it?

The question I usually ended a debate with a conservative Christian with was: "If the Bible was meant to be interpreted literally, why does it say that Jesus spoke in parables?" They could never answer it. The Bible, though I believe it is divinely inspired, is written by men, in the language and symbology they understood, hoping it would be for posterity. Some of the symbology applies to us today, some does not.

Originally Posted by joder

When Jesus says " Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41) do you think that eternal torture is good morality or do you think Jesus didn't say that particular idea? If you think he didn't say it, what criteria do you use to determine what he said or didn't say?

Keep in mind that the New Testament was written predominantly in Greek for a Hellenistic audience, long after Christ died. I don't think even the authors know exactly what he said. It's ironic that Christ said that you don't need an intercessor to talk to God, yet that very thing is a hallmark of the Church from its early years. I think that's why he died--he hoped his message would be better spread with him as a martyr, so I guess you could say that in that way he died for our sin--ie separation from God. But how do I determine these things? I read, I research, and I pray.

Originally Posted by joder

Some of you have stated that you accept evolution. I take it to mean the scientific view of evolution. If you do, then you know death came upon the "world" 3.5 billion years before homo sapiens evolved. Since death coming through sin and saving from death is the central part of the Christian faith, how do you reconcile the two? In the Bible there was no animal death before man's sin.

Yeah, well, the creation story is just that--Man trying to understand how all this came to be. Doesn't mean that it couldn't be divinely inspired. Humans then would not have understood the answers we've discovered now. But the first thing God says to Adam and Eve is "be fruitful and multiply, replenish the earth and subdue it." Farmers understand that quote very well--if you don't give to the earth you won't get anything from it. Thing is, Joder, if you take it too literally, whether you are for or against it, you will not get anything of real value from it.

Originally Posted by fastreplies

I don’t need Bible or Christ to teach me rights and wrongs and surely I don’t need to learn that from Priest, Rabbi, Mullah or some religious fanatics whose life is limited to “What would Jesus do?”

The real question you should be asking yourself is, what would CBWM do?

Originally Posted by joder

cbwm, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that you don't believe in a literal hellfire but that the concept is useful to keep people from doing bad things?

Yes. Promise of reward, fear of punishment. Book of Anthony Robbins chapter 4 vs. 23.

Originally Posted by joder

If so, you might want to read up on Plato and the modern philosopher Leo Strauss. They would have both agreed with you. In fact Leo Strauss had a great influence on Dick Cheney and other leading philosophical neoconservatives. The idea that you advocate that people have their views such as hellfire even though you yourself don't accept them was a concept Strauss advocated and he termed the "noble lie".

Linking from the "Real Belief" thread, if you believe life is competitive by nature, I would use the example of a poker game. Your goal is to instill beliefs in your competition that differ from reality. Also true in business.

I have yet to get the note from Dick telling me I should be thinking a certain way, but there have always been those pimping a belief system, and probably always shall be.

I've always been a bigger fan of real consequence, nothing so hazy and far off as a "burn in hell after death" type thing. Death penalty, tough laws, Bush Doctrine type stuff. Could we call it the "Noble truth"?

I thought this post was going to be how Americans are dumb.

How did it turn into a religious debate so fast??

Originally Posted by serandfae

Thing is, Joder, if you take it too literally, whether you are for or against it, you will not get anything of real value from it.

Tim, it doesn't matter if I look at the Bible literally or figuratively. I don't see any value in it either way. I get much more value out of reading Origin of Species, Facing Up and Dreams of a Final Theory (Steven Weinberg), God Particle (Leon Lederman), Demon Haunted World and Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors (Carl Sagan), Euripides, Homer, Thucydides, or countless other works than the Bible.

EDIT:

Tim, as regards Numbers 31, you are still ducking the question. Tell me what the symbolism is for that chapter or why it shouldn't be taken literally. Your response to that chapter was about parables and not taking things literally so you must be saying it has some meaning as a parable. I don't think anyone can figure it out. The parable of mass extinction.

Got to say - the original map was fairly accurate for many typical Americans - or certainly how many people see Americans as thinking.

Originally Posted by angele803

I thought this post was going to be how Americans are dumb.

How did it turn into a religious debate so fast??

Yeh! Off topic! Lets get back to America bashing... Common people!

The reason we (Americans) are perceived this way is because of our leaders and our celebrities. This (and the fact that we sort of choose our leaders and celebrities) gives people a good reason to think we are idiots.

Originally Posted by whym

Got to say - the original map was fairly accurate for many typical Americans - or certainly how many people see Americans as thinking.

Originally Posted by angele803

I thought this post was going to be how Americans are dumb.

How did it turn into a religious debate so fast??

The Democrats Suck thread is locked, so it kind of carried over here.

Although the belief-o-matic and A *real* belief survey threads are still open, so I don't know .

Originally Posted by jamestl2

The Democrats Suck thread is locked, so it kind of carried over here.

Although the belief-o-matic and A *real* belief survey threads are still open, so I don't know .

It just a matter of time James. It just a matter of time, starting - NOW


fastreplies

Originally Posted by angele803

I thought this post was going to be how Americans are dumb.

How did it turn into a religious debate so fast??

Originally Posted by jamestl2

The Democrats Suck thread is locked, so it kind of carried over here.

Although the belief-o-matic and A *real* belief survey threads are still open, so I don't know .

And that is where that debate should go....

It would seem that James could start a thread about fluffy bunnies and it would get usurped...my apologies for my part in it.

I don't think the Ugly American syndrome is just because of our leaders and celebs--when we were stationed in Germany the attitude toward a lot of soldiers wasn't always favorable, particularly when they didn't bother to learn the language and they acted boorish. Which is why Dad made me learn German and we frequented places that weren't "tourist traps"--because we could.

Originally Posted by serandfae

And that is where that debate should go....

It would seem that James could start a thread about fluffy bunnies and it would get usurped...my apologies for my part in it.

I don't think the Ugly American syndrome is just because of our leaders and celebs--when we were stationed in Germany the attitude toward a lot of soldiers wasn't always favorable, particularly when they didn't bother to learn the language and they acted boorish. Which is why Dad made me learn German and we frequented places that weren't "tourist traps"--because we could.

Forgive me for asking, but are brothels considered tourist traps in Germany? I know they are in Holland. Sorry for going off topic... back to bashing America.

Watch out for Cheney. I mean cbwm.




EDIT:

cbwm,

You change your avatar, I can add a pic I saved and it looks like your aiming at my avatar

Joder, you wascal....

@ cbwm--No, the proper names for those were the Officers' Club and the NCO Club.

It's not exactly unfair to call Americans elitist, hell, we're demonstrating it now. When travelling abroad, we can also be a bit gullible. A little ditty to that effect:

Josef Stalin had a Wall, doo dah, doo dah
Gorbachev, he let it fall, oh, doo dah day
Germany's united, it's our lucky day
Let's sell pieces of Berlin to the dinks in the USA....

(takes a bow)

Can I interest you in an authentic certified collectible dust collector?

Originally Posted by joder

Watch out for Cheney. I mean cbwm.

EDIT:

cbwm,

You change your avatar, I can add a pic I saved and it looks like your aiming at my avatar

Gotta keep you guessing! I really do love the Cheney with a shotgun look.