What does everyone think it is? Where'd we come from? What's the best plausible theory we have? Etc.

I've been thinking about this question for a little while and......

IMO neither Creationism nor Evolution seem to have all the answers. Modern Science just doesn't seem to have enough facts to give a straight answer. Is this why people turn to God or some other supernatural being?

Science will never have all the answers, especially to these questions. Most of the research going on is in medicine, energy, and computing. We've made computers able to see with remarkable detail, to think like humans in some respects, and to do our taxes. We're interested in moving away from gasoline, making faster computers with more cores, and all of that ... but it's less fruitful to try and pin down the exact history of the universe. Plus, nobody has a time machine to watch it all unfold.

To me, it seems like if you give the right set of chemical elements several billion years to stew, life is more likely than not to emerge. It may have happened and died out a few times before taking hold, just based on probability. That doesn't mean it's necessarily what happened, but not at all hard to imagine.

Evolution doesn't have anything to say about the origins of life ... it's just a mechanism that takes hold after that point. We see it when bacteria develops an immunity to penicillin. We see the same behavior in complex systems that aren't even living ... software is a great example.

Finally, I think the scientific and religious views would agree that not all questions have an answer, or at least one withing our grasp.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

Science will never have all the answers, especially to these questions. Most of the research going on is in medicine, energy, and computing. We've made computers able to see with remarkable detail, to think like humans in some respects, and to do our taxes. We're interested in moving away from gasoline, making faster computers with more cores, and all of that ... but it's less fruitful to try and pin down the exact history of the universe.

Just like the big bang theory. Sure, its possible that it happened, and the constant expansion of galaxies were caused by it, but science doesn't really say what exactly set it in motion.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

Plus, nobody has a time machine to watch it all unfold.

I think this is the same reason some people can say the Earth is only 6000 years old. Nobody from that long ago is living presently to claim that the Earth was actually around back then.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

To me, it seems like if you give the right set of chemical elements several billion years to stew, life is more likely than not to emerge. It may have happened and died out a few times before taking hold, just based on probability. That doesn't mean it's necessarily what happened, but not at all hard to imagine.

Maybe........ but then this begs the question on the origin of those chemical elements. Were they placed there by some supernatural being? Or have they always just "been there"?

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

Evolution doesn't have anything to say about the origins of life ... it's just a mechanism that takes hold after that point. We see it when bacteria develops an immunity to penicillin.

I don't think evolution really *can* have anything to say about the origins.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

We see the same behavior in complex systems that aren't even living ... software is a great example.

How about AI too? It's basically a foreign concept to me, but I think we (humans, in its case, and with software's) are the cause of its evolution. Without us, it wouldn't evolve.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

Finally, I think the scientific and religious views would agree that not all questions have an answer, or at least one withing our grasp.

I wonder if we will EVER be close to discovering our true origins? (say in a few hundred thousand, or even million a years from now, or however long it takes.)

Originally Posted by jamestl2

What does everyone think it is? Where'd we come from? What's the best plausible theory we have? Etc.

I've been thinking about this question for a little while and......

IMO neither Creationism nor Evolution seem to have all the answers. Modern Science just doesn't seem to have enough facts to give a straight answer. Is this why people turn to God or some other supernatural being?

I tend to agree with Carl Sagan that science and religion approach those questions from different vantage points, and I like the quote Joder had in his sig by Sagan about winnowing wisdom from nonsense in both. When that is accomplished the two are not in conflict.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

Science will never have all the answers, especially to these questions. Most of the research going on is in medicine, energy, and computing. We've made computers able to see with remarkable detail, to think like humans in some respects, and to do our taxes. We're interested in moving away from gasoline, making faster computers with more cores, and all of that ... but it's less fruitful to try and pin down the exact history of the universe. Plus, nobody has a time machine to watch it all unfold.

It is true that most of science is dedicated to what we can get immediate gain from; thankfully not all of science is.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

To me, it seems like if you give the right set of chemical elements several billion years to stew, life is more likely than not to emerge. It may have happened and died out a few times before taking hold, just based on probability. That doesn't mean it's necessarily what happened, but not at all hard to imagine.

But what if there is an underlying intelligence that includes random strings in its "program"? Something I've been wondering about is if the underlying reality of the universe is thought, or information. Most of matter is empty space, for instance. What is it that makes a quark an "up" or a "down", or that makes "strong" or "weak" nuclear forces work? How did they start out? Did matter and energy exist as such before the universe began, or were they something else? Is the word "began" even accurate?

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

Evolution doesn't have anything to say about the origins of life ... it's just a mechanism that takes hold after that point. We see it when bacteria develops an immunity to penicillin. We see the same behavior in complex systems that aren't even living ... software is a great example.

I hope in my lifetime we'll see things like artificially generated single-celled organisms. Even then, the real question of origins would be left to speculation and belief. But that's because pure science is supposed to deal with how, not why.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

Finally, I think the scientific and religious views would agree that not all questions have an answer, or at least one withing our grasp.

I agree with you; unfortunately many have aligned themselves into camps, each with assertions as if they did have all the answers. It's really a pity, for only through a balance of reason and intuition does real meaning come, IMHO.

Originally Posted by serandfae

I like the quote Joder had in his sig by Sagan about winnowing wisdom from nonsense in both. When that is accomplished the two are not in conflict.

Which quote was that? (I don't see it in his signature anymore.)

Originally Posted by serandfae

But what if there is an underlying intelligence that includes random strings in its "program"? Something I've been wondering about is if the underlying reality of the universe is thought, or information. Most of matter is empty space, for instance. What is it that makes a quark an "up" or a "down", or that makes "strong" or "weak" nuclear forces work? How did they start out? Did matter and energy exist as such before the universe began, or were they something else? Is the word "began" even accurate?

Dave and I were talking about existence over at the CF:
http://www.conspiracy-forums.com/exi...-ergo-sum.html

Maybe, in our case, humans just weren't meant to comprehend something as complex as existence.

Originally Posted by serandfae

I hope in my lifetime we'll see things like artificially generated single-celled organisms. Even then, the real question of origins would be left to speculation and belief. But that's because pure science is supposed to deal with how, not why.

soooooo, .................. why?

Maybe Evolution runs more along the veins of "How" and Creationism runs more along the lines of "Why", then in this case.....

Originally Posted by serandfae

unfortunately many have aligned themselves into camps, each with assertions as if they did have all the answers. It's really a pity, for only through a balance of reason and intuition does real meaning come, IMHO.

Along religious lines, I think its more a matter of power and control than discovering the truth, IMO.

Here it is with another Carl Sagan quote one below it.

Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people.

That's the quote! Thank you, Joder.

Elaborating further on the concept of information or thought as the ultimate source of reality, think of, "I Am" as the statement that brought the laws by which everything functions came to be, as a postulate. In programming, nothing exists which is not programmed in; even the bugs are put in by human hands. Say we're successful at interfacing the human brain directly with computers, and they learn how to speak brain. We could potentially create worlds that seem totally real, because they use the entirety of our perceptions (and please don't mention the Matrix, those movies took a novel concept and turned it retarded). In such a "reality", you would have to be extremely careful, because anything you thought would become real. You'd have to have extraordinary self-control. I don't know if humans would be capable of it without going insane. But now what if that "reality" crossed lines with the one we think we know? What if even in this reality, if thought is the essence of what is real, everything we think is written upon and affects the universe? Of course, it would be to scale, and infinitesimal compared to the universe, but an effect nonetheless. What if "I Am" is the core of existence in multiple ways?

I always like to have proof of whatever I believe in. I always compare the world I live in with Genesis 8:11-22. That is valid proof for me to keep on keeping on!!

Interesting quotes, Joder.

Originally Posted by joder

Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense.

I wonder just how much more skeptical scrutiny we'd need to remove most of the nonsense that takes place

Originally Posted by joder

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people.

It's amazing just how many Galaxies there are in the Universe, and to us, Galaxies are HUGE. Yet at the same time, our Universe could be perceived just as small as a grain of sand on the beach.

Originally Posted by serandfae

In programming, nothing exists which is not programmed in; even the bugs are put in by human hands. Say we're successful at interfacing the human brain directly with computers, and they learn how to speak brain. We could potentially create worlds that seem totally real, because they use the entirety of our perceptions

You mean like the Matrix? (j/k, to be fair though, the first movie was alright, didn't care too much for the other two)

Originally Posted by serandfae

In such a "reality", you would have to be extremely careful, because anything you thought would become real. You'd have to have extraordinary self-control. I don't know if humans would be capable of it without going insane. But now what if that "reality" crossed lines with the one we think we know? What if even in this reality, if thought is the essence of what is real, everything we think is written upon and affects the universe? Of course, it would be to scale, and infinitesimal compared to the universe, but an effect nonetheless.

That sounds very similar to Dreams. In dreams, we control what we view and interact with subconsciousely. We'd just have to be careful enough to not turn them into nightmares.

If something like this ever could be invented, then what would become of our world as we percieve it to be now? Would one cause the other to become obsolete?

I wonder though, if thoughts really are the essence of the Universe we live in, what does that make the Physical Universe we know and understand (via things like Theory of Relativity, Gravity, etc.)?

Originally Posted by serandfae

What if "I Am" is the core of existence in multiple ways?

That's an interesting theory, Tim. But could you elaborate on what you mean by "multiple ways"?

Originally Posted by jamestl2

That sounds very similar to Dreams. In dreams, we control what we view and interact with subconsciousely. We'd just have to be careful enough to not turn them into nightmares.

Well, most people neither control nor remember most of their dreams, from my understanding. I have heard of lucid dreaming, where a person can take conscious control of dreams, but I haven't really looked into it. I would think that with proper discipline and practice it could be done. But I wonder what it would do to us when we're awake? Anyone here ever try it?

Originally Posted by jamestl2

If something like this ever could be invented, then what would become of our world as we percieve it to be now? Would one cause the other to become obsolete?

Only if we made it so. But what I wonder more than that is if such a "reality" already exists, and would just be tapped into by that kind of invention. And what implications would it have for AI?

Originally Posted by jamestl2

I wonder though, if thoughts really are the essence of the Universe we live in, what does that make the Physical Universe we know and understand (via things like Theory of Relativity, Gravity, etc.)?

Interesting you should say that. What I've been batting around is the question of whether Thought might be a force in and of itself (and I'm not getting into questions of God per se here), if factoring it in as the underlying "stuff" of matter and energy, the ones and zeroes of what is, if quantum gravity couldn't be finally solved. That may be for another thread, though.

Originally Posted by jamestl2

That's an interesting theory, Tim. But could you elaborate on what you mean by "multiple ways"?

Well, I mean on the macro and micro scale. The big "I Am", which you could liken to a "program" which has both order and chaos (say, creation of matter/energy and entropy), that's initiated multiple random strings of existence over "billyuns and billyuns" of years (sorry, Joder, couldn't resist ). Then there's the small "I Am"s -- the itty bitty grains of sand -- namely, us, and other sentient beings in the universe, repeating that pattern on a much smaller scale.

Originally Posted by serandfae

But what if there is an underlying intelligence that includes random strings in its "program"? Something I've been wondering about is if the underlying reality of the universe is thought, or information. Most of matter is empty space, for instance. What is it that makes a quark an "up" or a "down", or that makes "strong" or "weak" nuclear forces work? How did they start out? Did matter and energy exist as such before the universe began, or were they something else? Is the word "began" even accurate?

Physics, or at least our understanding of physics, implies that anything that exists came into existence. Things have a beginning and an eventual end. But then we recognize conflicts between regular and quantum physics. A Brief History of Time talks about pairs of matter and anti-matter coming out of nothing, colliding, and vanishing back into nothing; Hawkins suggests that these might eventually 'miss' and spiral out into space. This was his theory for how black holes end. It's more than a little far fetched, but it brings up all sorts of questions about origin.

What makes a quark up or down ... is it something inherent to two different groups of quarks, or or our habits about the way we look at the world and classify things?

Another (somewhat random) theory I had was that what if our entire universe *was* just an atom or quark of an entirely exponentially larger universe, and vice versa. What if every atom in our universe was really just another very small universe, each with it's own seperate laws, life, etc. So you could consider things like electrons in our universe, galaxies in these "atom universes". Although how exactly this theory may pertain to the origin of life, I'm unsure.

Originally Posted by serandfae

Only if we made it so. But what I wonder more than that is if such a "reality" already exists, and would just be tapped into by that kind of invention. And what implications would it have for AI?

If it does, exactly "Where" would it exist? Maybe, since with our minds the imagination is the limit, thought is contained within an external dimension of some sort. Also, would the laws of this "newly created" universe be different that in ours? For example could you perform superhuman feats, or even various levels of magicka (OK, that may just be some wishful thinking on my part )?

Concerning AI, is Artificial Intelligence really all that artificial? Some could argue on a level that *our* intelligence is artificial, since we haven't always been around to experience it fully, not to mention our brains are composed of tissue, chemicals, and other forms of matter. But then again, is thought really related to our brains? If we do create some form of AI, will it be "fake" as many perceive it to be, or will it just be an entirely different level of though and intelligence.

Originally Posted by serandfae

Interesting you should say that. What I've been batting around is the question of whether Thought might be a force in and of itself (and I'm not getting into questions of God per se here), if factoring it in as the underlying "stuff" of matter and energy, the ones and zeroes of what is, if quantum gravity couldn't be finally solved. That may be for another thread, though.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

Physics, or at least our understanding of physics, implies that anything that exists came into existence. Things have a beginning and an eventual end. But then we recognize conflicts between regular and quantum physics. A Brief History of Time talks about pairs of matter and anti-matter coming out of nothing, colliding, and vanishing back into nothing; Hawkins suggests that these might eventually 'miss' and spiral out into space. This was his theory for how black holes end. It's more than a little far fetched, but it brings up all sorts of questions about origin.

This just gave me an idea, what if Tim's idea of "thought as a force" is directly connected to, or even *is*, antimatter. Sometimes it seems like thoughts are also "created out of nothing" and "vanishing into nothing" etc.

And also, where does dark matter fit into this scenario? If you think about it, dark matter is relatively unknown and does not emit any form of electromagnetic radiation. It is only identifiable via gravitation, so either it exists, or perhaps our basic theories of how gravity works are completely wrong.

Originally Posted by jamestl2

Concerning AI, is Artificial Intelligence really all that artificial? Some could argue on a level that *our* intelligence is artificial, since we haven't always been around to experience it fully, not to mention our brains are composed of tissue, chemicals, and other forms of matter. But then again, is thought really related to our brains? If we do create some form of AI, will it be "fake" as many perceive it to be, or will it just be an entirely different level of though and intelligence.

You could say that higher thought is an emergent property of the kind of brain chemistry mice have. Nothing about any particular bird is going to tell you the shape they fly in when they get together.

We've already got some forms of artificial intelligence. It's amazing what computers can do. They can't think like humans; they generally can't truly understand the tasks they're good at. We're starting to work on artificial stupidity ... you'd be surprised how good that is at predicting how groups of people will act.

Wikipedia says:

In some theories of particle physics, even such basic structures as mass, space, and time are viewed as emergent phenomena, arising from more fundamental concepts such as the Higgs boson or strings. In some interpretations of quantum mechanics, the perception of a deterministic reality, in which all objects have a definite position, momentum, and so forth, is actually an emergent phenomenon, with the true state of matter being described instead by a wavefunction which need not have a single position or momentum. Most of the laws of physics themselves as we experience them today appear to have emerged during the course of time making emergence the most fundamental principle in the universe and raising the question of what might be the most fundamental law of physics from which all others emerged. Chemistry (including the evolution of both elements and molecules over time) can in turn be viewed as an emergent property of the laws of physics. Biology (including biological evolution) can be viewed as an emergent property of the laws of chemistry. Finally, psychology could at least theoretically be understood as an emergent property of biological laws.

Hey a thread that is not about American politics I might get to agree with some of you guys.

I fully agree with jamest12 in his opening statement when he said neither creationist nor evolutionist has all the answers, and it would be foolish for anyone to say they do. I do believe in God, and I have grown up, in, and around church my whole life and in the bible belt too, and one thing that kills me is how some Christians act when it comes to this subject. I went to a Christian college for my fist two years and I can’t tell you how many debates I got in by my believing that God uses science to make things happen. Christians as a whole, are closed minded and have been ever since their existence, which is what gives them a bad name and comes across as stupid a whole lot of the time.

Here is the short version of kind of my belief system. I believe that God created, uses, and is what we know is science. Science is truth, logic, and is in everything we see and use. I have know problem believing in evolution that does not hinder my faith at all, because it is still a force more powerful than any human could understand, and I believe God is apart of that. I argued this point at the Christian college I previously told you about, and one guy even told me to “tell Hitler hello as I burn for all eternity”. I think one of the biggest problems with Christians is all through history they have been condemning people who think beyond what is written in the bible (which is mostly spoken figuratively, and what they use Geniuses, was written by a man thousands of years later). My favorite professor always said “question everything, even the bible, because true questions are the search for truth, and God is truth.”

Maybe we are all from the other galaxy. Have you thought of that?

Originally Posted by jamestl2

Another (somewhat random) theory I had was that what if our entire universe *was* just an atom or quark of an entirely exponentially larger universe, and vice versa. What if every atom in our universe was really just another very small universe, each with it's own seperate laws, life, etc. So you could consider things like electrons in our universe, galaxies in these "atom universes". Although how exactly this theory may pertain to the origin of life, I'm unsure.

You should factor space, time, matter and energy at the same time in that, and "thought" if it too is a factor. Think of the beginning and end of what we perceive as the universe as Event One and Event Zero, or everything is on and everything is off. Everything we see is at some linear time frame between those "points", but the points are connected by the program that writes the laws of how matter, energy, time and space behave between them. The program runs everything between them but there is no real "space" between Events One and Zero, or any variable of them. So an "atom universe" really wouldn't apply, but infinite universes may.

Originally Posted by jamestl2

If it does, exactly "Where" would it exist? Maybe, since with our minds the imagination is the limit, thought is contained within an external dimension of some sort. Also, would the laws of this "newly created" universe be different that in ours? For example could you perform superhuman feats, or even various levels of magicka (OK, that may just be some wishful thinking on my part )?

I wouldn't consider it a "dimension" any more than, say, x, y, z, time, vector, etc. There's nothing external about it. Matter/energy is particle and wave, time is a dimension of space, all are a function of Event One-Zero, which you can call The Big Idea (pun intended). Tapping into that in any small way gives us a broader insight into how things work, and perhaps we would be able to do things that would appear to be magic to someone who lived a century or more before. But superhuman? Try flying without a plane, glider, balloon or helicopter. You'll feel superhuman until that quick stop at the end. I just think if I'm on the right track here that we'll be able to observe and manipulate our surroundings from a different vantage point that we can't have stuck in the body we inhabit.

Originally Posted by jamestl2

Concerning AI, is Artificial Intelligence really all that artificial? Some could argue on a level that *our* intelligence is artificial, since we haven't always been around to experience it fully, not to mention our brains are composed of tissue, chemicals, and other forms of matter. But then again, is thought really related to our brains? If we do create some form of AI, will it be "fake" as many perceive it to be, or will it just be an entirely different level of though and intelligence.

Regarding thought being related to our brains, we're starting to think that the answer is yes and no. The brain may process data and run programs to govern the body's function, but there does appear to be a higher function that directs what we think of as "thought". It's what allows a person to rewire his brain in directed therapy, for instance. That's what AIs right now lack. It is at least will, some might go so far as to call it the soul, but that's a matter for faith. How do you get an AI to be self-directed, curious, and such? We really don't know what that "what" is in ourselves. IMO, AI is "real" when it's completely autonomous.

Originally Posted by jamestl2

This just gave me an idea, what if Tim's idea of "thought as a force" is directly connected to, or even *is*, antimatter. Sometimes it seems like thoughts are also "created out of nothing" and "vanishing into nothing" etc.

Sorry. Antimatter has mass; it consists of antiprotons, antineutrons and positrons. When it contacts matter, they don't really "annihilate" one another, they both convert (violently) to energy. Now it's possible that on the level of a black hole that gravity has matter and energy into one point, curved space and time in, and the information component is most easily seen, the clearest mirror of Event One, where things can become existent and nonexistent, if I'm understanding what Hawking is saying here. It's been theorized that there's giant black holes at the centers of galaxies--how'd they form to begin with, unless they were part of that Event One?

Originally Posted by jamestl2

And also, where does dark matter fit into this scenario? If you think about it, dark matter is relatively unknown and does not emit any form of electromagnetic radiation. It is only identifiable via gravitation, so either it exists, or perhaps our basic theories of how gravity works are completely wrong.

I would think that "dark matter" is just ordinary matter that we can't see because it's so far off. We have plenty of that in our own solar system, that I'm sure could not be seen from the closest star to ours with the equipment we have.

I'll tie this in to your original question about the origin of life soon, James. It's a matter of the difference between what really governs the universe as opposed to our perceptions of it. I personally think that there's an intelligence behind it, and a design, but probably more along the way Einstein defined those than any particular religion does. But more on that later.

tim

Thanks for debunking my crazy theories, Tim

Originally Posted by serandfae

You should factor space, time, matter and energy at the same time in that, and "thought" if it too is a factor. Think of the beginning and end of what we perceive as the universe as Event One and Event Zero, or everything is on and everything is off. Everything we see is at some linear time frame between those "points", but the points are connected by the program that writes the laws of how matter, energy, time and space behave between them. The program runs everything between them but there is no real "space" between Events One and Zero, or any variable of them. So an "atom universe" really wouldn't apply, but infinite universes may.

Sooooo.... why not?

Couldn't the same rules apply in my "atom universe" theory? (Which doesn't sound too dissimilar from "infinte universes" existing.) But we just wouldn't be capable of realizing we are a part of an atom universe.

Originally Posted by serandfae

I'll tie this in to your original question about the origin of life soon, James. It's a matter of the difference between what really governs the universe as opposed to our perceptions of it. I personally think that there's an intelligence behind it, and a design, but probably more along the way Einstein defined those than any particular religion does.

Let's just say here we know that thought is a component of our universe. Are there different "levels of thought" so to speak? I mean we do know that animals like dogs, chipmunks, etc. also have brains, and are obviously capable of thinking on some level or another. So this raises the question is human thought the only true component, or do we share that responsibility with other life forms as well?

Also, is "thought" directly related to our origins? And is that "intelligence", which you believe is behind it, internal or external? If it's external, Free Will probably does not exist (But that's a whole another discussion).

Originally Posted by Cheshire_cat

Hey a thread that is not about American politics I might get to agree with some of you guys.

Yay

Originally Posted by Cheshire_cat

I fully agree with jamest12 in his opening statement when he said neither creationist nor evolutionist has all the answers, and it would be foolish for anyone to say they do.

Yep, one of my reasons for starting the thread.

Like Forrest mentioned in his first post "Evolution doesn't have anything to say about the origins of life ... it's just a mechanism that takes hold after that point." This is one of the reasons I don't understand why Religious fanatics seem to have a problem with evolution, they don't exactly conflict. The only people that seem to think they do would be the same ones who say the Earth was created 6000 years ago in 6 days.

Originally Posted by Cheshire_cat

I believe that God created, uses, and is what we know is science. Science is truth, logic, and is in everything we see and use.

It makes you wonder though, just how everything came to be. I mean if people can say "God created the universe and everything" then who or what exactly created God. Then if those same people say "God has always existed, his powers and being are absolute". Then I would respond with the question "If God is capable of 'always existing', then why is the universe not?"

Originally Posted by jamestl2

Couldn't the same rules apply in my "atom universe" theory? (Which doesn't sound too dissimilar from "infinte universes" existing.) But we just wouldn't be capable of realizing we are a part of an atom universe.

They're not dissimilar; it's just that the term "atom universe" loses meaning if a universe has both infinite and infinitesimal scale, is everything and nothing, and the end is the beginning.

Originally Posted by jamestl2

Let's just say here we know that thought is a component of our universe. Are there different "levels of thought" so to speak? I mean we do know that animals like dogs, chipmunks, etc. also have brains, and are obviously capable of thinking on some level or another. So this raises the question is human thought the only true component, or do we share that responsibility with other life forms as well?

The component of thought in the universe would be present in all life, all matter and energy, all space and time. I guess maybe like the concept of the Force (that is, before the unfortunate trilogy and the concept of muddy klingons, or whatever Lucas called the things).

Originally Posted by jamestl2

Also, is "thought" directly related to our origins? And is that "intelligence", which you believe is behind it, internal or external? If it's external, Free Will probably does not exist (But that's a whole another discussion).

As described so far, it's the cause of life's origins. As far as this intelligence is concerned, if it's part of the universe, it's part of us. But why would that negate our free will?

Originally Posted by jamestl2

It makes you wonder though, just how everything came to be. I mean if people can say "God created the universe and everything" then who or what exactly created God. Then if those same people say "God has always existed, his powers and being are absolute". Then I would respond with the question "If God is capable of 'always existing', then why is the universe not?"

Good question. But what if the universe isn't defined by time except as by us within it, and then only from our point of reference? And what if there is an intelligence to the universe, but what we call God is entirely our own creation?

tim