but I can see my wife; how do I love something that I have never seen?

I have to say that I'm surprised that this thread didn't turned into a flamewar.
Surprised in good, that is.

I cannot say that I ever had any faith in something I cannot explain.
I'm a technical mind. I love to dissect, try, experiment until I can grasp what is the cause, why it works that way. I believe I always was, but as a boy, I followed what my parents wanted from me.

My mother is a profoundly faithful person, and she tried to make me follow her path. I was in my village scout patrol, I served in the village church, and I had fun to do at that time.
But all of this was more like spending time with other boys of my age, playing in the camps (as a scout) and, well, having a childhood.
It was like a thunderbolt, when I decided not to be confirmed (Translated directly from the Frech word, not sure if it's the good one). I was the only one in a school of around 150 kids to refuse to.
And it was in front of the bishop that I said so. I was kind of scared, to tell the thruth, but it was a relief.
I come from a particulary faithful part of my country. You can see peoples praying next to the road all the time. They are several abbay in the near vicinity and a "priest school" in the university. It' not something that was very "normal", 20 years ago, to have a 13 year old boy to stand out ad say "no, I don't want it; I dont believe in your religion" was not very common.

My wife is very faithful too, and I know that the fact that I'm not is something that confuse her. We had a little girl, and as my wife want to teach her what faith is, I try my best to support her. I never found anything insulting or that I was deeply opposed, and my way of life follow mostly what the priests where teaching. But I feel that the fact that I follow it, without believing in it is a problem for her. She told me that this was holding her back.
I find it sad, but I respect it.

But back on the tracks...
Like John wrote it, faith is one thing, and religion is another.
I'm mostly opposed to the religions ritual, but supportive of faith, whatever it is.
It's the "group" part of religion that bother me, and the fact that in the end, it's (mostly) just peoples trying to be part of a group, and ready to conform to that group usages to fit in.

Just like a teenager entering a gang would do. I did, and when I did got out, I never wanted to be part of any group anymore. Army was a real though time after that...

Originally Posted by Cheshire_cat

but I can see my wife; how do I love something that I have never seen?

How can you love humanity when you can't see every member thereof? How can you love justice or liberty in the face of their opposites?

tim

I think you can only love justice or liberty in the face of their opposites. If there was no injustice in the world, who would care about justice?

Originally Posted by serandfae

How can you love humanity when you can't see every member thereof? How can you love justice or liberty in the face of their opposites?

tim

who says I love humanity, I mean I want the best for the human race; but I don't know if I have true love for it.

And humanity is an obvious existence and habitant of this planet; I want to know how I am supposed to live for something that I really could never know.

You forgot about the love for intangible things like justice, fairness, or more esoteric, like your hometown, your country....how can you love them? (yes, the latter are tangible, but the concept of them is not). How can you love something that you can't see or directly witness? I'm sure you could probably answer that. Which is not to say that you necessarily have to translate that to God, but with a little creativity I'm sure you can see how others do.

tim

For me - God is tangible. I'll give you an example, whether you believe it or not is up to you.

In the summer of 1994 I was pregnant for my daughter and my hubby was working for his father out of town. I was two weeks over due with her and extremely tired of being pregnant. I decided it would be a good idea to go to the carnival where my hubby was working with my aunt and her husband. This carnival was about 60 miles from home, in the middle of nowhere...in the southern tier hills of NY.

When we got out there my hubby was livid. See, my aunt's car was a heap. Completely unreliable, in fact the most reliable thing about it was that it would break down. He had 3 more days at the spot and couldn't leave to make sure that my 4 year old son and my extremely pregnant self got home safely and this was way before we had cell phones. Being the eternal optimist that I am I told him to calm down, we would be fine.

Sure enough, on the way home, not 5 miles from the carnival, the car started to over heat. Even though it was prone to overheating, my aunt did not have any water in the car like most rational people who drive overheating cars would. It was around 1:00 am, not another car in sight and the houses were mostly a mile or so apart. We prayed that the car would just get us to the city limits where we could find a gas station with lights and people to let it cool down.

Within a mile - the car stalled. But when it stalled we were going down hill at a pretty good rate of speed. We coasted for nearly another mile and when we got down to less than 20 mph, we popped the tranny into neutral and it restarted - the rushing air from coasting had cooled the engine enough to restart. We continued that way for more than 40 miles - the car would stall and we would coast, when we were running out of forward momentum we were able to restart it.

We made it to a gas station on the outskirts of town, let it cool and refilled the radiator. We made it home safe and I didn't go into labor for 5 more days.

You can say - wow, that was really lucky. Or you can say, well the engine cooled off enough to restart it, that wasn't God, it was just physics. I don't agree with either of those statements. God was watching over my unborn daughter, my 4 year old son and myself, knowing I had been a stupid moron and answered my prayers to get us home safely.

In the case of religion, I think, people at first hand never had any choice. Like what many have said, if your born from a family of drug addicts, theres a big chance that you would be one too. When you were born and Christened or something to the religion your family is at, did you had any choice? If I was born in another country, then I would have been baptized differently then my religious beliefs would change.

I'm not saying that believing God is not right but, religion is sometimes. but what can we do right, it has been a part of our society. A matter created by men.
As it goes to many things, religion is a way to earn money, make people feel differently, live differently...

going back to the topic about religion conversion. I just saw that scenario as religion breaking up something beautiful. The truth is there are a lot of off sets of religion, people just refuses to see them. Like when they say in other religion that priests and nuns must practice celebacy, I've seen priests marry and even start a family. Religion is like the government, a lot of secrets and lies....

Originally Posted by jabo

In the case of religion, I think, people at first hand never had any choice. Like what many have said, if your born from a family of drug addicts, theres a big chance that you would be one too. When you were born and Christened or something to the religion your family is at, did you had any choice? If I was born in another country, then I would have been baptized differently then my religious beliefs would change.

I think that depends on the family you are raised in.

My family ranges from devout catholic to absolute athiest and all flavors in between. As a child I would attend a Presbyterian church, a Methodist church, a Catholic church, seances, tarrot card reading with different family members and when I was about 11 my mother became heavily involved in Scientology. Scientology was only one of the many, many different phases that my mother went through. Currently, she is an ordained metaphysical minister.

As a teenager I had no faith in God. None. He did not exist. Most of my teen years were hard and I couldn't see how a loving God would let me go through it alone.

As an adult I re-examined my beliefs, feelings and reasons for such.

When my kids were little I occassionally took them to a few different churches, usually it would be Presbyterian or Methodist.

We sent my daughter to a catholic school for the first couple of years and when we transfered her to public schools because of some deceptive handling of a school merger I decided we were going to try a couple of Methodist churches and a couple of Presbyterian churches. The first church we went to (it was first cuz they had a website and I could find out more ) felt like home the first time we went and we have been there for the last 5 years. The kids and I had in-depth conversatios to decide if this was where we wanted to be. My daughter started off that she only wanted to go to a catholic church and would go to church with her Grandmother for 3 weeks and with her brother and I 1 week. After a while she decided she liked our church better.

Granted both my upbringing and my children's upbring was predominately Christian, however we were encouraged to make our own decisions based on our own experiences and feelings.

Originally Posted by KML9870

I think that depends on the family you are raised in.

My family ranges from devout catholic to absolute athiest and all flavors in between. As a child I would attend a Presbyterian church, a Methodist church, a Catholic church, seances, tarrot card reading with different family members and when I was about 11 my mother became heavily involved in Scientology. Scientology was only one of the many, many different phases that my mother went through. Currently, she is an ordained metaphysical minister.

As a teenager I had no faith in God. None. He did not exist. Most of my teen years were hard and I couldn't see how a loving God would let me go through it alone.

As an adult I re-examined my beliefs, feelings and reasons for such.

When my kids were little I occassionally took them to a few different churches, usually it would be Presbyterian or Methodist.

We sent my daughter to a catholic school for the first couple of years and when we transfered her to public schools because of some deceptive handling of a school merger I decided we were going to try a couple of Methodist churches and a couple of Presbyterian churches. The first church we went to (it was first cuz they had a website and I could find out more ) felt like home the first time we went and we have been there for the last 5 years. The kids and I had in-depth conversatios to decide if this was where we wanted to be. My daughter started off that she only wanted to go to a catholic church and would go to church with her Grandmother for 3 weeks and with her brother and I 1 week. After a while she decided she liked our church better.

Granted both my upbringing and my children's upbring was predominately Christian, however we were encouraged to make our own decisions based on our own experiences and feelings.

thats a good way to handle religion, by learning from experiences and using them for the best. But I guess my view about religion will never change, its not that I don't want to but I just don't see anymore reason why I should...

Originally Posted by Cheshire_cat

How do you know that God is there? How do you tell someone that there is a God and even though you cannot see him, you must obide by his law or you will spend you afterlife (which you cannot prove that there is even one) in everlasting damnation.

I've been told that if I don't whole-heartedly believe in the god of the Christians, I'll burn for all time. But I've also been told that if I don't whole-heartedly believe in the god of the Muslims, I'll burn through the ages. How would you suggest I decide which of these warnings to heed?

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

I've been told that if I don't whole-heartedly believe in the god of the Christians, I'll burn for all time. But I've also been told that if I don't whole-heartedly believe in the god of the Muslims, I'll burn through the ages. How would you suggest I decide which of these warnings to heed?

What I told my kids:

Only you can decide what to believe in.

If you have taken the time to learn what another person believes and can see the truth in their beliefs in your heart over what your own previous beliefs, then that is what you should practice.

If you take the time to learn and still feel that your beliefs are right for you then stand strong in your beliefs and you afford that person the respect that you would want them to give you for your beliefs.

If you have not taken the time to learn about another persons beliefs with an open mind you not only do not have a right to disparage their beliefs, but you also have shaky grounds on which to base your own beliefs.

The wisest thing to do is live your life, nobody really knows what comes after death. They say that there is heaven or hell, but how could they have said that, have they been there or knew anyone who had? Don't comment on this post if your just gonna say that you believe in heaven or hell cause no one would probably care. Life is too beautiful to be wasted on religion.....

Originally Posted by jabo

The wisest thing to do is live your life, nobody really knows what comes after death. They say that there is heaven or hell, but how could they have said that, have they been there or knew anyone who had? Don't comment on this post if your just gonna say that you believe in heaven or hell cause no one would probably care. Life is too beautiful to be wasted on religion.....

I know in my own personal life; I don’t think I started to really live until after I started to follow the teachings of Christ.

I see your point and due to the extremely bad impression that Christians give people, I can’t say that I blame you for your views. But I will say this if you ever really truly study the teachings of Christ and understand them, they can do nothing but enrich your life.

These answers are fascinating ... but they don't answer my question. I've done what Kandi suggests, and come to a conclusion I'm quite happy with. But some in my community don't like what makes sense for me to believe. Christians and Muslims both tell me about a torture chamber called hell, and I'd like to avoid it ... so how would you recommend I go about choosing one horse or the other to bet on?

Hell is great for persuasion, and the concept has come up in this thread about religious conversion. Pascal's Wager says we should all believe in god because the potential consequence of not believing is so terrible ... but we still have to choose which god to believe in. There are two very popular ones who will both send a person to hell for choosing the wrong one, for calling him by the wrong name in a prayer. This is unmistakably clear all throughout the gospel, for example.

So ... how would people advise someone who's disinclined to theism in general, to go about choosing which of these dire warnings to pay attention to, in order to avoid this place called hell?

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

These answers are fascinating ... but they don't answer my question. I've done what Kandi suggests, and come to a conclusion I'm quite happy with. But some in my community don't like what makes sense for me to believe. Christians and Muslims both tell me about a torture chamber called hell, and I'd like to avoid it ... so how would you recommend I go about choosing one horse or the other to bet on?

Hell is great for persuasion, and the concept has come up in this thread about religious conversion. Pascal's Wager says we should all believe in god because the potential consequence of not believing is so terrible ... but we still have to choose which god to believe in. There are two very popular ones who will both send a person to hell for choosing the wrong one, for calling him by the wrong name in a prayer. This is unmistakably clear all throughout the gospel, for example.

So ... how would people advise someone who's disinclined to theism in general, to go about choosing which of these dire warnings to pay attention to, in order to avoid this place called hell?

I can't speak for all Christian denominations, only for my own. There are vastly different opinions amongst the Christian denominations. Methodists, myself included, believe that if you do your best to follow the teachings of Jesus, but don't believe in him you will be given an option to accept him as your savior prior to your final judgment. The teachings of Jesus are really not that hard to follow. My signature sums up a large majority of it. Be kind to people, care for people, don't judge someone else, help others, love human kind. Most of what Jesus taught is simply being a good person with a kind heart.

but don't believe in him you will be given an option to accept him as your savior prior to your final judgment.

Sorry but I find that humorous, not to offend you, but what it sounds like and I may just have read it wrong but it sounds like what you are saying is if you live a decent life but don't believe in Jesus, when final judgment comes and Jesus really does exist.... he's going to ask you "Well, do you believe in me now!" and if you say yes you get in and if your completely stupid and say no he denies you and you go where ever people who don't believe in Jesus go.

Am I far off?

Well that might be one way of looking at it, I'm not sure if theres an actual doctrine on what happens to people who live good lives but aren't religious for the Catholic church. Maybe they have to spend more time in purgatory, I don't think they're just gonna get a choice like Bama suggested

Originally Posted by BamaStangGuy

Sorry but I find that humorous, not to offend you, but what it sounds like and I may just have read it wrong but it sounds like what you are saying is if you live a decent life but don't believe in Jesus, when final judgment comes and Jesus really does exist.... he's going to ask you "Well, do you believe in me now!" and if you say yes you get in and if your completely stupid and say no he denies you and you go where ever people who don't believe in Jesus go.

Am I far off?

The Christian church as a whole is a lot less "hell and brim fire" than it used to be. The doctrine isn't quite what you suggested, but it is close. I don't think Jesus is going to appear and ask you if you believe in him. I think it's more like at the end of your life you have an awareness that "this is it" and that you have to decide what you truly believe. I think there are also people who sort of believe and they will be in the same boat that people that just plain don't believe will be in.

So am I the only one that has a problem with believing or even for that matter following a God that would send someone to wherever they go if they don't believe in a God (It may be less hell and brim fire than before but I think we can all agree that the consensus is that it's not good by any means) and make them stay there for eternity, even if they led a great life, inspired many and made a positive impact on society.... just because he has this huge ego and didn't like the fact you didn't believe in him?