I had this friend once that fell in love with another person. This experience of his made me not believe in religion more. The couple did have a great relationship and almost, just almost got married. The other person had this issue about religion. That person says that the other person(my friend) must convert to their religion as this is a must for the other person's religious teaching, well of course my friend refuses to for my friend had his/her own religious beliefs. The other persons religious advisers said that it must be done, followed by this other person saying to my friend to do it to prove that my friend truly loves this other person, then my friend says "I can do that for you, will you do that for me?".. the ending, my friend ended up alone....

I think that was very pathetic, religion is just a belief, not a way of life. What business do they have in other people's lives. See the way religion has altered peoples way of thinking...

I makes me sad reading your post, I see you have no true understanding of what you call religion. First, if religion is a belief like you stated a “true belief” than it’s also a way of life. Too many people say yeah I’m a Christian or I practice this or that, but when it comes down to actually living it, that is a different story. And that is what it is all about “living it”.

And religion does need to alter our way of thinking, if it does not, then what good is it, we are still the same person.

I agree with Phil. Religion is a way of life. My faith plays a big part in every decision I make. My beliefs define what is right and wrong, how I should respond to situations, etc. I can respect another persons beliefs without it threatening mine though. I would not ask someone to change their beliefs to prove they love me. Your beliefs come from within, they are not something anyone can force one you. I had a friend who fell in love and converted from Christianity to Judaism. As their relationship developed she attended synagogue with him. As she learned more about it she decided she wanted to convert. That type of change is okay. It is not okay for anyone to force their beliefs on someone else. I'm sorry for your friend that the person they fell in love with could not love them enough to let them be the person they are meant to be.

faith is basically an illogical belief in the occurance of the improbable. someone of faith is just someone who has lost the ability to think rationally and clearly.
reflect on that.

I agree with Phil and Kandi, except I disagree about the word religion itself and it's meaning. First, I think it's plain stupid demanding someone to convert. We don't choose our religion. I never woke up one day and said "I think I want to be a Christian." I felt the warm glow of God's love, and I can't not believe in him any more than I can not believe in the sun, or cars on the road. It would be just as hard to make me not a Christian as to make me not believe in the sun up in the sky.

But that's faith. That's my relationship with God and Jesus. That isn't what I'd call religion. To me, religion is a bunch of people in a church, with a priest telling them what's what. I think it's an important distinction, and I think De La Soul said it best in lyrics to one of their songs.

When I'm watching the news
and my daughter comes in and choose
to ask "Who were all those people,
sleeping on the ground, lying, covered in red?"
I tell her they were looking for God
but found religion instead.

Originally Posted by robertjordan

faith is basically an illogical belief in the occurance of the improbable.

Interesting definition. Unfortunately, it isnt one you will find in the dictionary. I've copied a definition from the dictionary below for your edification.

Faith (noun)

1) belief that is not based on proof

As an example, one could say, "Athiests have faith God does not exist" or "you have faith that the religious cannot think rationally" or "the religious have faith in the existence of God".

Unfortunately, actually saying "someone of faith is just someone who has lost the ability to think rationally and clearly." is a personal opinion, and one most people of religion or education would find insulting. So why say it?


reflect on that.

ok cbwm, answer me this: what is faith actually based on and how does one attain it?

Belief of course. How do you become convinced of something? It seems pretty easy to me, even in this age of science and "reason" to realize man does not have an answer for the "Why" of science, and only a small fraction of a percent of the "How". Faith, as applied to belief in God, gives answers to the Why question.

im sorry, i most have been misunderstood because i was under the impression this discussion was all about giving one's personal opinion.
and another thing, consulting the dictionary for the definition of faith is nothing short of laughable.

You are right, of course, about the personal opinion thing. I think many of the religious might be of the opinion that those who fail to believe in god and act accordingly are bad people who are going to hell. You just won't find many of them posting that particular opinion here, or anywhere, because people like you and Adam would be insulted. It doesn't mean they don't think it.


Regarding the dictionary definition, why is using the dictionary's definition laughable and using yours not?

well in that case i hereby invite all those deluded christians to insult me all they like.

Originally Posted by cbwm

because people like you and Adam would be insulted. It doesn't mean they don't think it.

Honestly, and I say this as a Christian who follows Jesus's teachings, unlike many, I can't think of any situation where I've ever seen an atheist play the hurt feelings card. My brethren do this all the time. More to the point, I've seen you play the hurt feelings card in defense of faith, but I've never seen Adam Web Design or Robert Jordon do the same.

FIRST: This discussion is open to everyone's opinions, providing you can give your opinion without insulting other members.

Okay, as a person who believes in God and Jesus Christ I have to answer you Robert.

As cbwm stated, faith does not have anything to do with religion.

I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. Why? Because it has for all of the 13,000 + days of my life and as far as I know for the entire existance of the earth. Scientific principle happens to agree with this faith, but not all faiths and I don't only have faith that it will happen because of scientific proof or because of past experiences.

I have faith that Jesus Christ died for my sins and that he loves me. Why? Because I have felt the love of God more times in my life than I can count. I can not explain it to you more than that. I believe because I have had my prayers answered more times than not. I believe because I see miracles happen on a frequent basis.

My religion is United Methodist. Why? Because I identify with the principles of the denomination. One of the most stressed principle of the UMC is to be educated. We have seminars, classes and discussions scheduled regularly that all are encouraged to attend. Another reason I am a member of the UMC is because we are a loving and accepting congregation as a whole. The motto of the UMC is "Open heart. Open minds. Open doors." The education that the denomination offers includes a variety of topics including other religions. Another reason I am a member of the UMC is because of the community work that is a central part of the denomination. Our local governing body (which consists of about 250 churches) has distributed more than $6,000,000 in aid to organizations like the Red Cross, Make a Wish Foundation, food pantries, etc in the last year.

I think quite clearly and rationally. I am educated and hold a vast array of knowledge on a large variety of subjects. I am not narrow minded or judgemental. I do not think that people who do not believe in God are bad people or evil. You have as much of a right to your beliefs and faiths as I do mine. I am comfortable with who I am and secure enough in myself not to have a need to change other people. I am happy to share with you why I believe what I believe. What you do with that knowledge is up to you.

There's no need to. I have faith that there is such a thing as love, and it motivates me to let such things as insults blow by. Those who don't have love of some kind in their lives are already in hell, IMHO. That I choose to call the force that motivates it God or Christ is just that, a choice. That others deny that such love exists or call it someone else does not threaten me in the least. It answers questions for me that logic cannot. There are more ways of thought than pure logic; any artist knows that.

tim

first of all i have great respect(even envy) for those of faith and i would not like for people to think of me as ignorant to the ideas of faith. i would like to discuss your religion, united methodist, but do not wish to, until i know more.
so could you briefly explain to me the fundementals of your religion?

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Honestly, and I say this as a Christian who follows Jesus's teachings, unlike many, I can't think of any situation where I've ever seen an atheist play the hurt feelings card. My brethren do this all the time. More to the point, I've seen you play the hurt feelings card in defense of faith, but I've never seen Adam Web Design or Robert Jordon do the same.

Bah, I knew I was going to get flack for this. Personally, my feelings are not hurt as you know I am not very religious. Frankly, it was people like you who Jordan said had lost the ability of rational thought. Also, Adam has definitely cried about religious beliefs oppressing him, going so far as to say that he was insulted by religious decorations in public places because he felt he was being recruited.

I certainly hope you didn't misconstrue my posting as being in any way supportive of that line of thinking, or of the PC crowd. There are many ways to phrase something, or expressing your opinion, without resorting to personal attacks. For instance, I can say,

"Jordan is deluded and a misguided fool" . The statement may be my personal opinion but that makes it no less directly insulting, and something I would not support. I could modify the statement to make it less personal by saying, "People who don't believe in God are deluded idiots who've lost the ability of rational thought". Less personally insulting, but actually worse because it is a groundless attack on a whole group of people without any supporting argument. Its like saying, "All Muslims are prone to terrorism and should be watched very carefully". I could supply some BS I make up as supporting evidence for my personal attack, but that would make it no better.

Stepping back across the line, I could provide some evidence, contrived or otherwise, to show that someone is an idiot who has lost the ability of reasonable thought, without specifically saying it, and let the audience draw their own conclusion. These are all subtleties, I know, but you have to draw the line somewhere I suppose.

Robert, you can learn more about the United Methodist Church here. There is in-depth information on the site into every aspect of the UMC. BTW, I wasn't insulted or offended - I have tougher skin than that, but I did feel the need to have my say

I believe in evolution, and I still believe in Jesus.

I have faith that DNA exists, even though I've never seen the stuff myself. I think I have pretty good reasons to believe that DNA isn't a fairy tale, but I can't prove it with my bare hands. I really have to defer to people in white lab coats with equiptment I'll never be able to afford, and frankly don't have the time to learn to use and interpret. Given all this, I think DNA requires about as much faith as Jesus does. And given life as we know it, or at least as I know it, I think there are very good reasons to believe in both.

How do you know that God is there? How do you tell someone that there is a God and even though you cannot see him, you must obide by his law or you will spend you afterlife (which you cannot prove that there is even one) in everlasting damnation.

Originally Posted by Cheshire_cat

How do you know that God is there? How do you tell someone that there is a God and even though you cannot see him, you must obide by his law or you will spend you afterlife (which you cannot prove that there is even one) in everlasting damnation.

How can you prove that you love your wife? I'm sure you do, even without it being proven, so that tells me I can believe something that hasn't been absolutely proven 100 %.