Originally Posted by robertjordan

i not talking about access to harvards finest professers. just some basic education. if you came from a working-class backround its likely you'd be in prison too. theres a reason why the wealthy rarely find themselves in jail. in truth, kids living in certain areas should be thought right from wrong at an early age.

I have a number of problems with your post:

1. I grew up in a very low income household. My mom was a single mother, mostly without a job and collecting welfare. We were evicted from more apartments for non-payment than I can count. All of my clothes were hand-me-downs or thrift store buys. A fine meal was macaroni & cheese with my hot dog. I have not, in my 37 years ever even been threatened with arrest, much less come close to spending time in prison.

2. There are many, many spoiled rich kids who go to jail or should be in jail. Why? Because their parents did not actually raise them. Having children to a lot of wealthy people is more of a status statement than a responsibility to mold an intelligent, productive, respectful member of society.

3. Children in all areas need to be taught right from wrong. This is not something that changes whether you are born with a pile of money or a pile of dirt. All children need love and nurture, an environment of rules and learning in order to become productive members of society. It has nothing to do with social status.

4. If an adult commits a crime against society, it should not be societies hard earned money that pays for that adult's higher education.

Originally Posted by robertjordan

i not talking about access to harvards finest professers. just some basic education. if you came from a working-class backround its likely you'd be in prison too. theres a reason why the wealthy rarely find themselves in jail. in truth, kids living in certain areas should be thought right from wrong at an early age.

I came from a "working-class background" and have never been in jail or thought about stealing or committing any other crime.

The key point of what you said is kids should be taught right from wrong (by their parents). But that goes for all kids.

Poor kids can in my area, and I think in most states, go to college for close to free. They just won't avail themselves of the opportunity. When I first went to community college, I received more grant money than the cost of school. Parents need to instill in their children a work ethic. School takes work and earning a good living is work.

They say 90% of the violent crimes are committed by 10% of the prison population, which will likely never be rehabilitated. Educating these people just creates a better equipped criminal. We should acquire a large island (1000m2) in the pacific, rich with natural resources, and give such violent criminals the option to have their sentence waved in exchange for deportation to the island. Give them a gun and one box of bullets, and a basic survival kit. Guard the island by boat. Any person re-appearing in the United States after such a deportation agrees to submit to the death penalty immediately and without appeal. Australia was born from such a system, and look how terrific it turned out.

Edit: Forgot to mention, we need to decriminalize almost every drug related crime. This should reduce the strain on our prison system dramatically. Prison should be for child abusers, rapists, murderers and thieves, not pot smokers and those who supply them their product.

Originally Posted by cbwm

They say 90% of the violent crimes are committed by 10% of the prison population, which will likely never be rehabilitated. Educating these people just creates a better equipped criminal. We should acquire a large island (1000m2) in the pacific, rich with natural resources, and give such violent criminals the option to have their sentence waved in exchange for deportation to the island. Give them a gun and one box of bullets, and a basic survival kit. Guard the island by boat. Any person re-appearing in the United States after such a deportation agrees to submit to the death penalty immediately and without appeal. Australia was born from such a system, and look how terrific it turned out.

Edit: Forgot to mention, we need to decriminalize almost every drug related crime. This should reduce the strain on our prison system dramatically. Prison should be for child abusers, rapists, murderers and thieves, not pot smokers and those who supply them their product.

I'm not exactly sure that's the best idea I've ever heard. I think a basic education should be provided - i.e. ensuring that the prisoners can read and write and can do basic arithmetic. Other than that, I don't think they should be given the opportunity to study anything such as a college course or a university diploma - they are in there because they've broken the law and they should pay for what they've done.

I still think the rubbish sorting idea is quite good - it'll keep the prisoners occupied and help them pay back to society for what they've done.

Dan

Originally Posted by cbwm

We should acquire a large island (1000m2) in the pacific, rich with natural resources,

Where is this island?

to KML9870 and joder: you came from lower class areas and you are educated and (i presume) law abiding citizens but you are the exeption to the rule, and you are! because if your not an exeption you didnt grow up in the environments im talking about. my point is:kids growing up in these drug infested hell holes need to be got at,at an early age because very soon they'll be members of street gangs and then theres no hope. this should come in the form of social programmes in school or something similar.

Originally Posted by robertjordan

to KML9870 and joder: you came from lower class areas and you are educated and (i presume) law abiding citizens but you are the exeption to the rule, and you are! because if your not an exeption you didnt grow up in the environments im talking about. my point is:kids growing up in these drug infested hell holes need to be got at,at an early age because very soon they'll be members of street gangs and then theres no hope. this should come in the form of social programmes in school or something similar.

The Exception?!!! You really believe that? I grew up with the government paying for my school lunches. I know many many many other people who came from less than middle class upbringing who worked hard and are very successful in their lives.

If you want to sell the idea that the majority of people in America not born to money become criminals, you better be selling some hallucinogenic drugs with it. Again, put down the Michael Moore video. Its fiction. If your indoctrination came from some other source, you should cite it. I'd love to have a look.

I guess that lesson today is that most Americans are criminals.

Seriously though, Robert, you don't know much about the United States. Our country is 3000 miles wide. It's not all sections of inner-city neighborhoods. Most people are working class and good law-abiding citizens.

dont patronize me i know plenty about america and i also know millions upon millions of americans have never nor ever will commit a crime. but why is it that more than a quater of US inmates are black males between the ages of 20 and 39? this means 12% of black men in their early 20s and 30s(1 in 10) are in prison. even more startling: 28% of black men will, at some point in their lives, spend time in prison.
good ol' democratic USA!

And black males do not represent a majority of the US!! Not only that, they don't represent a majority of the population living under the poverty level.

Those stats have a lot more to do with the African American society than it does with anything else. I am not in the slightest bit racist, I have friends of every creed, nationality, religion and color. However, a large number of African American males are raised to believe that because my ancestors enslaved their ancestors I personally, and society as a whole owe them life handed to them on a silver platter. This attitude is prepetuated in inner cities more so than among educated African Americans. This attitude has a lot more to do with the statistics you quote than the income level or democracy.

Originally Posted by robertjordan

dont patronize me i know plenty about america and i also know millions upon millions of americans have never nor ever will commit a crime. but why is it that more than a quater of US inmates are black males between the ages of 20 and 39? this means 12% of black men in their early 20s and 30s(1 in 10) are in prison. even more startling: 28% of black men will, at some point in their lives, spend time in prison.
good ol' democratic USA!

There it is. That good ol' anti-American sentiment. Lets drill into a single statistic and call the U.S. a horrible place. Nice topic switch too. You started out by saying that anyone raised in the U.S. without money was likely to wind up in prison, then finding no leverage there, switched to some disturbing (and likely exaggerated) statistics about black males in America. Without having to address the issue brought up in your most recent post, I could drill into a variety of disturbing statistics about Ireland which, in isolation, could be used to call it a horrible place as well.

Regarding blacks in American culture, you might take note that a black man is currently the most probable next president of the United States. More and more black role models are presenting themselves in U.S. society, including Republicans Colin Powell, Condi Rice. I don't think anyone needs a history lesson to explain why Blacks have struggled in America while others have integrated. When you have a black person credibly running for the office of President in Ireland, you can come back and post.... oh wait, you would have to retroactively add years of slavery, followed by a civil war, followed by years of segregation, followed by years of opression. Yeh, no room to talk. We've come a long way.

i pity you, i really do.

Having been to Ireland, I can say with no uncertainty, your pity is misplaced.

did you know ireland is the 2nd richest country in the world(per head). were are going through the most prosperous time in our history, so prosperous that 200000 polish have emigrated to the country, a staggering ammount when you consider our population of just four million. also we have one of the best education systems in the world ands whats more weve done away with college fees so its completely free.
just out of interest cbwm, after your visit to ireland, what exactly was not to your liking?

Originally Posted by robertjordan

just out of interest cbwm, after your visit to ireland, what exactly was not to your liking?

I don't recall saying anything was not to my liking. I said your pity is misplaced. Ireland is home to Guiness, one of my favorite beers, which contrary to the BS stories, tastes exactly the same in Ireland as it does in the U.S.. Your pubs are nice, as is the countryside, and Lily's bordello on Grafton St. is worth honorable mention.

Originally Posted by robertjordan

did you know ireland is the 2nd richest country in the world(per head). were are going through the most prosperous time in our history, so prosperous that 200000 polish have emigrated to the country, a staggering ammount when you consider our population of just four million.

Yes, I'm aware of your economic boom, fueled by a strong euro as well as your tax and labor laws. While you import labor from Poland, the U.S. is busy exporting jobs to your country, as we do to India, China, and Africa. I fail to see how that qualifies you to "pity" the U.S.. Your per capita GDP, even after the dollar-euro adjustment doesn't match ours.

Originally Posted by robertjordan

also we have one of the best education systems in the world

Completely false. Per your own 2006 statistics, you have 396,408 citizens out of just over 3 million eligibles who have attained a college degree. I looked for something that would be useful in comparison, since your population is nowhere near as diverse as the U.S., your climate is colder, the population is lower, and less dense. I choose Washington state from our "great white north", who also had just over 3 million eligible. The number in Washington state with a college degree is 1,368,826, or 3.5x the number in Ireland. I don't know where that places you on the world scale, but its not good. Maybe it is the educated Irish that are migrating en masse to the United States.. Another reason might be the average temperature in Ireland is 9 centigrade, where San Diego's average is 22, even in winter, and I can drive to world class snowboarding in 6 hours.

Originally Posted by robertjordan

ands whats more weve done away with college fees so its completely free.

After looking at the numbers above, I can see why.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, you guys all drive on the wrong side of the road. Whats with that!

Originally Posted by cbwm

EDIT: I forgot to mention, you guys all drive on the wrong side of the road. Whats with that!

I cbb to argue with the rest of the post and some of it I agree with - however, this part I must comment on.

We drive on the correct side of the road - just like we spell correctly and pronounce words correctly

cbwm, whenever you post you usually back up your points with factual statistics(as do i) and i respect that, with that said, if i make a point which criticizes america, it seems you cannot accept that certain areas of the huge land mass may not be perfect.
and something i want to make clear: i dont believe the us is a flawed country, in fact its my dream to live there someday, but as this is a politics forum i should allowed to raise issues without being acused of making them out of hate or ignorance.

Originally Posted by whym

I cbb to argue with the rest of the post and some of it I agree with - however, this part I must comment on.

We drive on the correct side of the road - just like we spell correctly and pronounce words correctly

I do have to say that it is my “American Dream” to find a girl from England; nothing is sexier than a girl with an English accent.

Originally Posted by robertjordan

cbwm, whenever you post you usually back up your points with factual statistics(as do i) and i respect that, with that said, if i make a point which criticizes america, it seems you cannot accept that certain areas of the huge land mass may not be perfect.
and something i want to make clear: i dont believe the us is a flawed country, in fact its my dream to live there someday, but as this is a politics forum i should allowed to raise issues without being acused of making them out of hate or ignorance.

Fair enough, but when you isolate facts to draw misleading conclusions, you should be prepared to be called out on it, whether or not you follow your post with "good ol' democratic USA!". Michael Moore manages to get Hollywood to call his propaganda films "Documentaries" via very much the same technique. I also believe that when you "Raise issues on the Politics forum" by saying "The poor in America who don't wind up in jail are the exception", or "Those who believe in God are delusional", you should expect to hear responses like, "The majority of Irish are lucky to get a job in a factory, given their lack of education". Enflamatory statements only loosely based on facts.

firstly, you're misquoting me and second, statements like:"those who belive in god are dilusional" are ones of opinion, there are no facts when it comes to religion.
also stop talking about ireland whens its not the subject matter of the discussion.