Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

It's telling that the deniers in this thread appeal pretty much only to logical fallacies.

The word "Denier" is so negative. I prefer the name "Pro-Reality".

Isn't it amazing how rude people can be?? How can you have any sort of discussion with someone that constantly resorts to insults and name calling?? It just re-enforces my belief that trying to carry on a discussion with some people isn't worth the effort..

Originally Posted by cbwm

I prefer the name "Pro-Reality".

So do I. You can use it on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays; I'll take it the rest of the week...

Reality, as I understand it, involves a few important facts:

1. The temperature and climate are changing.
2. Both of these things have varied substantially across geological-time. One reason we know plate tectonics is true is because palm trees have been discovered in Antarctica. The latter-day Sahara desert was a lush wetland during our exodus from Africa. Neanderthal man roamed Europe during the last glacial maximum.
3. The ways our climate has been changing since the Industrial Revolution are very unlike anything we know from the billions of years of Earth's history. What we're seeing is a lot more involved than a thermometer just going up.
4. We're almost more adaptive to changes in weather than the food 6.7 billion of us depend on to survive.
5. Cause and effect is absolutely true.
6. The large-scale changes industrialization has brought about [pollution] can't not have some effect.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

So do I. You can use it on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays; I'll take it the rest of the week...

Reality, as I understand it, involves a few important facts:

1. The temperature and climate are changing.
2. Both of these things have varied substantially across geological-time. One reason we know plate tectonics is true is because palm trees have been discovered in Antarctica. The latter-day Sahara desert was a lush wetland during our exodus from Africa. Neanderthal man roamed Europe during the last glacial maximum.
3. The ways our climate has been changing since the Industrial Revolution are very unlike anything we know from the billions of years of Earth's history. What we're seeing is a lot more involved than a thermometer just going up.
4. We're almost more adaptive to changes in weather than the food 6.7 billion of us depend on to survive.
5. Cause and effect is absolutely true.
6. The large-scale changes industrialization has brought about [pollution] can't not have some effect.

It is true that hundreds or thousands of years ago the planet does evolution or something and that it never stops. But I think that pollution did have some effects on the planets cooling/warming... Its not as if that the ozone layer is self destructing or something.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

So do I. You can use it on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays; I'll take it the rest of the week...

Fine, we'll share it then. Does that leave Al Gore and his minions as the "Anti-Discussion" folks? Too negative. How about the "Pro-Fiction" group? I've got one that no one can argue with..... the "Politicians". So fitting, on pretty much every applicable level.

Regarding your facts, I couldn't agree more, except maybe with fact number 3.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

The ways our climate has been changing since the Industrial Revolution are very unlike anything we know from the billions of years of Earth's history. What we're seeing is a lot more involved than a thermometer just going up.

Its not that it may not be factual, but lacks consistent evidence to firmly establish that it is. We haven't really been recording climate change much prior the Industrial Revolution, and certainly not for billions of years of Earth's history when man was non-existent. This leaves us pulling CO2 content from Ice Cores, looking at tree rings, and using a variety of other related science to guestimate what the climate was doing prior to the days of direct observation.

Cause and effect are absolutely true, and there can be no denying our increasing level of industrialization and pollution absolutely has to be having some effect on our planet. The missing facts are the ones that clearly prove that man made CO2 production is the cause of the warming effect we are seeing.

Originally Posted by Feydakin

Isn't it amazing how rude people can be?? How can you have any sort of discussion with someone that constantly resorts to insults and name calling?? It just re-enforces my belief that trying to carry on a discussion with some people isn't worth the effort..

You said many things that were patently untrue - were you expecting to fool everybody?

The most recent, and the one you're seemingly upset over, was that you saw it on TV 30 years ago, so it must be reality. Any person who can spell intelligence knows this is false. There's a TV show called Sesame Street where an oversized bird holds conversations with humans, but I'm sure we can both agree that doesn't reflect the scientific consensus, right? I hope?? Even though it was on TV!

Ah, so you are saying that the "tv" and "media" of today is now 100% factual??

The fact is, in the 70s, for several years, every media outlet of the time was screaming ice age.. Just as they are now screaming global warming.. But I am thrilled to see that you will take that one thing and decide it is enough to ignore everything else I've said.. I'm also thrilled that you continue to show just how incapable of discussing things like an adult you are.. It seems that you are finding it challenging to discuss anything without trying to be insulting.. I'm fine with that.. Go right ahead.. But it doesn't help your argument at all..

So what do the melting ice caps on Mars mean?? How about the temperature drop of last year, and seemingly this year as well, mean?? Do we throw out any cooling year as an aberration to continue to show a net heat gain?? Or do we say that since it it still hotter right now than some random year in the past it proves man caused global warming is a fact??

I can't wait to see how you react in nearly 40 years when people half your age talk like this to you for what you believe to be true right now..

Originally Posted by Feydakin

Ah, so you are saying that the "tv" and "media" of today is now 100% factual??

The fact is, in the 70s, for several years, every media outlet of the time was screaming ice age.. Just as they are now screaming global warming.. But I am thrilled to see that you will take that one thing and decide it is enough to ignore everything else I've said.. I'm also thrilled that you continue to show just how incapable of discussing things like an adult you are.. It seems that you are finding it challenging to discuss anything without trying to be insulting.. I'm fine with that.. Go right ahead.. But it doesn't help your argument at all..

So what do the melting ice caps on Mars mean?? How about the temperature drop of last year, and seemingly this year as well, mean?? Do we throw out any cooling year as an aberration to continue to show a net heat gain?? Or do we say that since it it still hotter right now than some random year in the past it proves man caused global warming is a fact??

I can't wait to see how you react in nearly 40 years when people half your age talk like this to you for what you believe to be true right now..

This thing that is happening, what ever you wanna call it, global warming or something, is just a natural process. The earth, since thousands and millions of years ago has been continually evolving and it will still be evolving. We all cant stop it but we didn't cause all of those to happen.

Actually all the processes which are going on (Global warming, wars, overpopulation, globalization etc,) are natural. The question is 'how quckly' these processes are going on. The mankind is rapid in its development and this makes an impulse for all the rest. We are really cannot stop it, but we are able to speed it up.

Originally Posted by Telemech

Actually all the processes which are going on (Global warming, wars, overpopulation, globalization etc,) are natural. The question is 'how quckly' these processes are going on. The mankind is rapid in its development and this makes an impulse for all the rest. We are really cannot stop it, but we are able to speed it up.

exactly how do you define natural?