I heard a speech a priest (the vicar of the Oxford's church) gave, about how he addressed his faithful the Sunday following the tsunami. It was a lot more interesting than you might think at first. No hand wringing about God can't exist if bad things happen - more like, can we learn anything about God from how the world operates?

The title was "How Could God Allow the Tsunami?" And one answer was that, maybe, God doesn't allow things to happen. Maybe God isn't a cop, waiting to beat people who step out of line. Maybe God isn't a puppet master, pulling the strings, controlling every detail of life on Earth? Just as humans were given free will, maybe natural processes were given dominion and autonomy over our planet? God could have created the world, then left it to its own devices.

Tom Honey suggests that God might instead listen to our prayers the way a close friend listens to our frustrations. Maybe God is there, suffering with us, giving us strength to face what life throws at us, but powerless to stop or prevent it? Or, what if God wasn't a person at all, sitting in a corner of Heaven on a thrown - what if God was the goodness and life force inherent in everything? What if God was simply the beauty in all things?

That all sounds like hokey metaphysics, but I think anybody who has a personal relationship with God has wondered how there can be so much suffering in the world, when our world was created by such a loving God. And I do think Mr Honey is right to suggest that we've put too much of our own image into how we think of God. What do you think?

Here's a link to the talk, if anybody would like to see it-

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/112

Sounds interesting, glad to hear there are religious leaders willing to discuss different ideas.

I remember a dateline episode about a preacher who had a new idea about faith and the nature of what 'Hell' really is, he shared his ideas with his congregation and the church rejected him, he was pentecostal, which is kind of a fundamentalist denomination, might not have been so bad in other sects.

Found it:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14337492/

Great article! This is especially poignant

There was a news story on about the refugee crisis in Rwanda.

Pearson: And you saw these African people—mostly women and children walking slowly back trying to come home. There was no light or life in their eyes. It was a horrible thing for me to see. Swollen bellies and skeletal bodies, emaciated... and then the babies looking at the mom and the mama looking out in space. It was sad. And I’m sitting there with my little fat-cheeked baby and my plateful of food, watching my big screen TV. A man of God, a preacher of the Gospel, and Evangelist, and I’m looking at those people assuming that they’re probably Muslim and going to Hell. “’Cause God wouldn’t do that to Christians,” I’m thinking...

Morrison: They deserve hell.

Pearson: They deserved hell.

I think the alternative is a lot easier to swallow. And I think this is one of the main problems of organized religion in general.

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

The title was "How Could God Allow the Tsunami?" And one answer was that, maybe, God doesn't allow things to happen. Maybe God isn't a cop, waiting to beat people who step out of line. Maybe God isn't a puppet master, pulling the strings, controlling every detail of life on Earth? Just as humans were given free will, maybe natural processes were given dominion and autonomy over our planet? God could have created the world, then left it to its own devices.

This is not a new idea by any stretch. It's called Deism; most of the Founding Fathers espoused this view.

If God created the universe, and acts as its essence, then the laws by which that universe operates, including those of chance, why would he or it act against them? In other words, why would there be such things as miracles or intercessions? If he's in everything and everyone, why wouldn't everything that has life have a soul on some level, energy of life that comes from him and returns back to him? (Some of this is my speculation, some comes from Teilhard de Chardin, a Catholic mystic who was a contemporary of the Deists).

tim

I know this particular "vicar" didn't invent the ideas, and actually deism is quite interesting. In some versions I've heard of, it was actually the devil who created the Earth, at a moment when God wasn't looking! It's a great idea for the poetic merit, if nothing else.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean or not, but it sounds like you're saying a God who created the universe, also created the rules nature obeys, that caused the tsunami that caused this speech? Or, in other words, that God can't be let off the hook as a non participant?

Personally, I believe in Miracles. I believe Mary was a virgin, for example. She didn't have to be, and a lot of Christians say maybe she wasn't - but I just don't see any reason God would want to trick us about this one. Or, any of the other miracles in the Bible. And I think what you're saying is that if God wanted to be directly involved in the affairs of the Earth when those miracles happened, he probably wouldn't have got shy since then?

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

I'm not sure if this is what you mean or not, but it sounds like you're saying a God who created the universe, also created the rules nature obeys, that caused the tsunami that caused this speech? Or, in other words, that God can't be let off the hook as a non participant?

Actually, what I'm saying is that even chance follows a pattern, so my speculation is that God engineered randomness into the laws that govern the universe. By so doing he set the universe in motion, perhaps with some idea how things probably would turn out but didn't know for certain. By that logic evolution could have been engineered into creation. And God wouldn't break his own laws by interceding on our behalf. But as his children he would still want us to find him, even in the face of disasters that leave the spiritually, well, still developing, wanting to blame him. But it's always struck me as incredibly short-sighted to think that every "good" that befalls us is God's blessing, and every ill a curse, just as it is horribly immature spiritually do do good or refrain from doing wrong out of hope for heaven or fear of hell.

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Personally, I believe in Miracles. I believe Mary was a virgin, for example. She didn't have to be, and a lot of Christians say maybe she wasn't - but I just don't see any reason God would want to trick us about this one. Or, any of the other miracles in the Bible. And I think what you're saying is that if God wanted to be directly involved in the affairs of the Earth when those miracles happened, he probably wouldn't have got shy since then?

Well, it's more like not having to make Mary or Jesus supernatural to believe in them. I think that historically people have needed stories of heroes being greater then they really were to be able to admire them. I prefer to see heroes warts and all; how else can you aspire to be like them?

Right now the kids I work with have Biggie Smalls and Tupac in their faces all the time, but have to look to find something about Martin Luther King, Jr. They don't identify with Dr. King as much because they're too young to remember his struggles and only see the larger than life legend. Biggie and Tupac are more real to them. For that matter, what about the kids who shot up Columbine? They had absentee parents who were right there. Who did they look up to? People like Kurt Cobain? All I can say is that along a similar line of thinking here, I let my kids see me as I really am, and the rules I set for my life, and try to be someone they can look up to, including the mistakes I've made and learned from. Parents everywhere are bringing up a culture of death because their kids don't get that kind of upbringing. It could even be argued that Christianity became a culture of death because of insisting upon turning Christ into an idol rather than someone to be learned from.


tim

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Personally, I believe in Miracles. I believe Mary was a virgin, for example. She didn't have to be, and a lot of Christians say maybe she wasn't - but I just don't see any reason God would want to trick us about this one. Or, any of the other miracles in the Bible. And I think what you're saying is that if God wanted to be directly involved in the affairs of the Earth when those miracles happened, he probably wouldn't have got shy since then?

The thing is, God didn't wrote the bible, and he didn't told all those stories about miracles and stuffs. It was more like a grape vine that existed for the illusion to gain authority to those who fears.

Originally Posted by serandfae

Actually, what I'm saying is that even chance follows a pattern, so my speculation is that God engineered randomness into the laws that govern the universe.

Interesting. I guess I didn't catch that because I don't believe in randomness. Maybe I'm too influenced by Neitchze's theory of determinism, maybe I'm thinking of the wrong meaning for the word random, and maybe I'm wrong on both counts. But I see what you're getting at here, and it does make sense. I have to agree, that God doesn't break his own laws.

Originally Posted by serandfae

Right now the kids I work with have Biggie Smalls and Tupac in their faces all the time, but have to look to find something about Martin Luther King, Jr. They don't identify with Dr. King as much because they're too young to remember his struggles and only see the larger than life legend.

I'm very curious what you mean by this? I've been thinking about it, and I think the part where I begin to lose the train of thought, is that I'm not sure if you mean Biggie and Pac as individuals, or as representatives of rappers in general? Would Jay Z and Nas have worked as well here?

Part of the reason I ask is that Pac and Biggie have been dead as long as Martin and Malcolm, in practical terms, for the youth today. 2Pac was killed in 1996, so today's 16 year old was 4 when it happened. Today's 25 year old was 13, which isn't before the dawn of time and memory. Scott La Rock was more like 20 years ago. Anyway, I agree with most of what you said, but I need clarity on this point.

Originally Posted by serandfae

It could even be argued that Christianity became a culture of death because of insisting upon turning Christ into an idol rather than someone to be learned from.

I think the real problem is trying to stick a middle man between God and his children.

But along these lines you're opening up, I have to admit, eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ has always sort of creeped me out.

Originally Posted by serandfae
Right now the kids I work with have Biggie Smalls and Tupac in their faces all the time, but have to look to find something about Martin Luther King, Jr. They don't identify with Dr. King as much because they're too young to remember his struggles and only see the larger than life legend.

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

I'm very curious what you mean by this? I've been thinking about it, and I think the part where I begin to lose the train of thought, is that I'm not sure if you mean Biggie and Pac as individuals, or as representatives of rappers in general? Would Jay Z and Nas have worked as well here?

What I mean is that these were examples given to me by kids around the age of 16. Their type of music and the message that goes with it survives, as does how they died, and both seem more real than MLK or Malcom X. I've been hearing that same thing over the course of a little over ten years, from kids wearing shirts with images of lost friends and family members. The feeling I get is that they weren't talking about rappers in general.

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Part of the reason I ask is that Pac and Biggie have been dead as long as Martin and Malcolm, in practical terms, for the youth today.

You might think so, but no. There's middle school kids today who can quote the Beastie Boys' License to Ill album that came out when I was in junior high. They wear shirts sporting Jimi Hendrix, Bob Marley, Iron Maiden, and yes, Biggie and Tupac. With the latter two, kids still talk about how they died like it was yesterday. Not so with MLK and Malcom X. You would think that being contemporaries with the earlier entertainers that wouldn't be the case, but it is.

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

I think the real problem is trying to stick a middle man between God and his children.

But along these lines you're opening up, I have to admit, eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ has always sort of creeped me out.

Getting back to the original topic, and to address what you're saying, it is ironic that Christ was executed for saying that people didn't need an intercessor to talk to God, yet a church was built around his name filled with people who acted as said intercessors. But the greater problem is that by making Christ an idol, he's put in the way between people and God. Does that make sense? For Christianity to change from a grassroots movement to an authoritarian structure the very notion of Christ had to change, which is when the focus on the crucifixion, dying for sin, and the doctrine of the Trinity began. Doctrine took the place of teaching, and the notion of heresy was born. I'm sure you can see that it is still alive and well today. Christ the Teacher was swept away; Christ the Idol won out. And God's still the Punisher from afar, to a great many, with all kinds of bizarre rituals to appease him or show worthiness.

tim

Some of the ideas being talked about ... aren't these small-step ways of saying god doesn't really exist at all? The idea that god doesn't exert any power on the world, but is "in everything," sounds pretty atheistic to me.

And if God set the universe in motion, then stepped away from the reigns, how is that any different from a natural world view, where things in the universe can only be affected by other things in the universe? If somebody changed the name of the big bang to god, it sounds like their model of the world would be indistinguishable from this one?

The difference would be that a theist would attribute intelligence to that presence throughout the universe, and a soul, the soul from which all souls sprang, the soul that you have to be able to shut yourself up enough to hear and connect to. I do think that God intervenes in our lives, but through us, and only if we're humble enough to listen. But then, I believe that there are elements of the universe that cannot be quantified or named, only felt.

tim

I don't believe that god exists the Tsunami happend because of natural causes.

I believe God exists, and helps those who helps themselves.
I believe in the Ramayana, Mahabharata, and the Bhagavat Gita, and I am against the Setu Samudram project.

I find it hard to imagine that there is a god at all, but i'm keeping my options open

but for me i believe that there is a god or if not someone out there who is the superior above us all that guide us constantly. beside the teachings of my religion teachers i myself proclaimed that there is a loving god beside me.

I myself, believe there is a God. I have seen Him work miracles in my behalf and on behalf of others.

I heard a quote once. "It takes more faith to believe in nothing than it does to believe in God."

God is our maker and understands us better than we understand ourselves. The problems in the world are man-made or natural disasters we suffer as a result of being alienated from God.

God created man, placed him in a perfect paradise. Man decided he didn't want to be ruled by God and was evicted from that paradise and allowed to make his own decisions. Now you see the results. Those who choose to get to know God will find a measure of peace and happiness but as long as man rules this world we will continue to suffer.

I don't need God to define my happiness. God was created, because we suffer not in the absence of suffering.

Really it is the great one article. I really respect those person who think on different ideas.
God's nature is nothing as like your home. As you God is the owner of that house and it take decision for wealth ness of its home as you take decision for your home.
Some time it is hard but it is beneficial for future.

If you believe in God you don't have to understand Him. Because He's too complex for a man to know. Changes in the world can be His own doing, but we don't know exactly. You can read my article related to this entitled apocalypse and see if we varies with our thoughts.