don't you provide a list of the "crimes" which these pride filled people from the U.S. military have committed, where they should have questioned their orders?

At least I attempt to respond to what you say and choose your points to respond to directly. You seem to be answering the questions no one posited.

What I said was, "We also have a government willing to do crime." I even bolded it for you. I didn't say the soldiers were criminals, but some of them have proven to be just that. You don't need to "make up" reasons for comparisons because I twice explained exactly how they are similar, without calling anyone a Nazi.

If you need a list of crimes the government...or SOLDIERS for that matter have committed through the U.S. Military I would be more than happy to list some

You should probably read the UCMJ..

Have you been to Boot?? Do you know what is taught?? Or are you making a guess based on your feelings??

Maybe I should read that and I will if you can provide a link. I of course have no experience in the millitary but I am aware of some of their training through soldiers I've known and other sources of information.


I grow tired of some of this. I wont respond to anything that doesn't actually address the points I make or words I type.. I am enjoying this debate so much though

Sorry if it appeared I was answering a question nobody asked. You said:

Most of the higher up Nazis were intelligent and competent too.

in response to:

I'm married to a Lt. Colonel with several advanced degrees from places like Notre Dame and she was neither poor nor under educated nor exploited..

Forgive me if that sounds like a comparison of U.S. troops to Nazis. You followed it up with a clarification:

I'm not calling American's Nazis. I'm saying that these faceless, questionless and pride filled people, the masses of young men who have no say in what their actions are... remind you of anything?

Which is unquestionably a direct comparison of our armed forces to Nazis. My post was merely to point out that a pride filled army that obeys chain of command is as weak a link as saying that Nazis and American troops were both homo sapien. Sorry for the derail, but I tend to respond to comparisons between Americans and Nazis.

Look, I too don't want to go back and forth or twist the conversation. So lets get back to and stick to the main track... your track.

Impeach presidents for being criminals like the Bush Crime Family.

"CHRIST! I had better not lie to the American population, commit countless underhanded and criminal actions

I don't support the troops
...
Not as individuals not as heroes not as anything. They are sheep to me, comprised of the poor, under educated and exploited, searching for oppurtunity and fighting the war of rich old men.

We also have a government willing to do crime.

Originally Posted by highanddry

If you need a list of crimes the government...or SOLDIERS for that matter have committed through the U.S. Military I would be more than happy to list some

Essentially Bush is a criminal, our government is criminal(including the Democrats in congress I'm assuming), and our soldiers are mindless drones like Nazi troopers who you don't support for their mindlessness. I would also assume, based on me believing that you believe what you are telling me that you are ashamed to be an American?

I guess what I would ask you for is some hard evidence of all these allegations. By the way, if you are going to equate war casualties to murders, I want to be sure you are equally ashamed of all the people we killed in Vietnam, N. Korea, Central America, and arround the world.

Originally Posted by cbwm

Essentially Bush is a criminal, our government is criminal(including the Democrats in congress I'm assuming)

Sorry to cherry pick your post but I just wanted to comment on this-
Yes the Democrats in congress are criminals, if this FISA bill passes they'll aiding and abetting by covering up a crime.

If the president violates the constitution, the congress supports his illegal acts, and the courts are unwilling or unable to do anything about it, then the rule of law has no meaning....

I want to see everyone held accountable for this telecom immunity and warrantless wiretapping scandal.

Originally Posted by ECSuite_Russell

If the president violates the constitution, the congress supports his illegal acts, and the courts are unwilling or unable to do anything about it, then the rule of law has no meaning....

I want to see everyone held accountable for this telecom immunity and warrantless wiretapping scandal.

Maybe I'm mincing words here, or someone else is, but laws that violate the constitution are passed all the time and neither the legislators who pass them, nor the government entities that carry them out are held as criminals, even after a case makes its way to the supreme court and later finds the law unconstitutional. What am I missing?

Edit: I forgot to add an example - heres a recent one... the Washing D.C. gun ban. Are the regional legislators who enacted that unconstitutional piece of legislation criminals for trampling our civil rights? Are the police to be held to criminal charges for enforcing it? One thing I suspect is happening is that all the convictions based on that law are now being overturned.

Originally Posted by cbwm

Which is unquestionably a direct comparison of our armed forces to Nazis.

And my wife specifically..

This is why I keep telling myself to not get in to these types of discussions.. Some people find it so easy to be insulting over the internet when they would never ever consider saying such a thing in person..

I'm done..

A quote from Marshall's opinion on Marbury versus Madison:

Between these alternatives there is no middle ground. The constitution is either a superior, paramount law, unchangeable by ordinary means, or it is on a level with ordinary legislative acts, and like other acts, is alterable when the legislature shall please to alter it.
If the former part of the alternative be true, then a legislative act contrary to the constitution is not law: if the latter part be true, then written constitutions are absurd attempts, on the part of the people, to limit a power in its own nature illimitable.

You can guess which side of that my own opinion falls on. Using the dc gun ban from your example, the local legislators violated their second amendment rights, I think it's sad that such a thing happened so casually. I'd like to imagine in another time if this occured the people as a whole would have spoke out against it and outright ignored the ban, if not remove the legislators who passed the bill from their positions.

The bill on FISA that the senate is voting on says that a president can authorize the breaking of the law with no consequences, and the property rights of corporations are more important than the personal, supposedly constitutionally protected rights of individuals.

The president commited a felony and the senate is passing a bill that says its not. If this happens what does anything matter? The law has lost the ability to protect the people from the government, and we're not actually free.

Oh by the way if you didnt know, Obama is one of the senators supporting the FISA legislation, so when I say they're commiting a criminal act it includes him.. I still can't figure out why, it's damaged him more than anything else in this campaign, he's seriously shaken his progressive base and lost donation money and votes from the left because of it. And I still don't know why, I can't figure out what he gains from it..

Originally Posted by ECSuite_Russell

Oh by the way if you didn't know, Obama is one of the senators supporting the FISA legislation, so when I say they're commiting a criminal act it includes him.. I still can't figure out why, it's damaged him more than anything else in this campaign, he's seriously shaken his progressive base and lost donation money and votes from the left because of it. And I still don't know why, I can't figure out what he gains from it..

He could gain credibility with the moderates and conservatives as someone who wont do all the stuff that he was saying he would do during the primaries. Apparently immediate withdrawal from Iraq is also now supposedly a no go in the Obama camp. Personally, I wouldn't read too much into it. That guy will say pretty much anything he has to until he is elected. After that, you'll have a liberal Democrat with a Democrat congress behind him. FISA will fall, taxes will go up, entitlements will increase, national security and foreign policy will get jacked over...you know, the usual fare.

Originally Posted by ECSuite_Russell

I'd like to imagine in another time if this occured the people as a whole would have spoke out against it and outright ignored the ban, if not remove the legislators who passed the bill from their positions.

The bill on FISA that the senate is voting on says that a president can authorize the breaking of the law with no consequences, and the property rights of corporations are more important than the personal, supposedly constitutionally protected rights of individuals.

The president committed a felony and the senate is passing a bill that says its not. If this happens what does anything matter? The law has lost the ability to protect the people from the government, and we're not actually free.

President authorizing the breaking of the law(Constitutionally speaking)..... like when FDR(Democrat) illegally detained and and held without charge or due process over 100,000 innocent U.S. citizens for over two and a half years? No outcry. No civil disobedience. No calling the President or his administration "Criminals". Certainly no trials for those who enacted or enforced that law, or the supreme court who found it to be constitutional at least once. A group of people we now call the greatest generation.

There are many many more examples. So I ask again. Bush Crime Family? Criminal Government? Mass Murderer Bush? You'd think he pulled an FDR and rounded up everyone of the Islamic faith and put them in concentration camps. Makes me wonder if, in 40 years from now, we will be termed the most pathetic generation.

Essentially Bush is a criminal, our government is criminal(including the Democrats in congress I'm assuming), and our soldiers are mindless drones like Nazi troopers who you don't support for their mindlessness. I would also assume, based on me believing that you believe what you are telling me that you are ashamed to be an American?

I guess what I would ask you for is some hard evidence of all these allegations. By the way, if you are going to equate war casualties to murders, I want to be sure you are equally ashamed of all the people we killed in Vietnam, N. Korea, Central America, and arround the world.

I didn't say "war casualties" were "murders." I said Bush is a murderer. I didn't say anything about "being ashamed to be an American" though sometimes I feel that way.

You are correct in your interpretation of my views

Essentially Bush is a criminal, our government is criminal(including the Democrats in congress I'm assuming), and our soldiers are mindless drones like Nazi troopers who you don't support for their mindlessness.

Though what was really intended, and obvious was that: The coupling of a criminal govt with masses of unquestioning children fighting for that govt leads us down a dark path.

And my wife specifically..

This is why I keep telling myself to not get in to these types of discussions.. Some people find it so easy to be insulting over the internet when they would never ever consider saying such a thing in person..

I guess it is your choice to take insult from what I write, all I'm doing is stating an opinion and you better believe I would say any of this to anyone if it was appropriate debate...such as this.

From CBWM:

Makes me wonder if, in 40 years from now, we will be termed the most pathetic generation.

Yeah... me too, because of people unwilling to see reality for what it is, people so deluded by propaganda and speaking points that they defend (or ignore, or are conveniently unaware of) daily criminal governmental actions.

For hard evidence, better layed out and constructed than what I could conjure up on an internet thread, read the Bugliosi book.

Originally Posted by highanddry

At least I attempt to respond to what you say and choose your points to respond to directly. You seem to be answering the questions no one posited.

That's Because chum is a parrot who won't think for himself, and repeats the most absurd claims his party tell their people to. This puts him in the very difficult situation of arguing that drunk driving is an American virtue, as is killing people, but doing anything to improve our nation is somehow a bad thing.

Because this leaves chum in a very untenable position, he resorts to things like the straw man fallacy - inventing a stupid idea, pretending anybody who doesn't agree with him is supporting his imagined position, and then attacking it, trying to give the impression that (1) his enemies believe in the tooth fairy, that (2) there is no tooth fairy, and (3) that this somehow proves he was right, that Bush Co had no choice but to lie to Congress and the American people in order to kill our young people, provoke a civil war, and ultimately steal Iraq's oil. Chum's delusion that Democrats believe in the tooth fairy winds up fueling his belief that no bid oil contracts raping Iraq for the profit of Bush's personal friends are the only justified response to his imagined tooth fairyism.

Originally Posted by highanddry

Though what was really intended, and obvious was that: The coupling of a criminal govt with masses of unquestioning children fighting for that govt leads us down a dark path.

You'll get no argument from me that the govt. needs to be questioned. Its the ridiculous conclusions and indictments people make that I take issue with.

Originally Posted by highanddry

Yeah... me too, because of people unwilling to see reality for what it is, people so deluded by propaganda and speaking points that they defend (or ignore, or are conveniently unaware of) daily criminal governmental actions.

I'll go a step farther. There can be no question the folks sitting in Gitmo who were picked up on U.S. soil, specifically U.S. citizens are there illegally. The wiretapping stuff will also eventually be overturned and found to be unconstitutional. Detainees at Gitmo picked up on foreign battlefields seem like unexplored territory to me, and it will be interesting to see fate holds for them. There is no delusion of propaganda or talking points. In a time of war, our government has committed unspeakable acts against the enemy and, at times, against our own civil rights, in an effort to make us safe. Our nation has evolved since the days of WWII. I doubt we would have the backbone or the stomach to undertake such an endeavor again, if called upon to do so. In today's society, FDR and Truman both would be burned in effigy for their actions. What can I say. It sucks to be president at time of war.

Originally Posted by highanddry

For hard evidence, better layed out and constructed than what I could conjure up on an internet thread, read the Bugliosi book.

Sorry, I don't help fund idiots. If you can post a torrent, I'd be happy to download and read, but like Michael Moore, while I truly do want to savor every tidbit, I simply won't contribute to their cause. If it were not for bit torrent, I'd of had to give all those fine movies a pass. Maybe you can share the key "smoking gun" evidence sections that show Bush to be a criminal for actions he has taken other than similar actions taken by FDR and Kennedy?

Sorry, I don't help fund idiots.

He's an idiot because you think you don't agree with him. Since you are unaware of his major points, there is no other conclusion. In reality he is at the very least a brilliant and legendary prosecuter who has never lost...Hardly an idiot. If I run across the torrent online I'll post it but so far I can't find it.

FISA passed... only 28 senators voted against it, quote from Russ Feingold on the dissenting vote:

"I sit on the Intelligence and Judiciary Committees, and I am one of the few members of this body who has been fully briefed on the warrantless wiretapping program. And, based on what I know, I can promise that if more information is declassified about the program in the future, as is likely to happen either due to the Inspector General report, the election of a new President, or simply the passage of time, members of this body will regret that we passed this legislation. I am also familiar with the collection activities that have been conducted under the Protect America Act and will continue under this bill. I invite any of my colleagues who wish to know more about those activities to come speak to me in a classified setting. Publicly, all I can say is that I have serious concerns about how those activities may have impacted the civil liberties of Americans. If we grant these new powers to the government and the effects become known to the American people, we will realize what a mistake it was, of that I am sure."

So disappointing, I feel like something major has happened here and most American's probably don't even know what FISA is.

I still don't understand WHY. cbwm suggested Obama voted for it to appeal to moderates, but I really don't think there's a big "give telecoms immunity" voting block out there.

I don't think its some sort of blackmail, I do remember reading about members of congress starting to be spied on back in 02-03 though. If it is, I think what Sen. Feingold was getting at is that they're trying to cover their own complicity, keep the public from finding out about these programs so the blackmail is literally, 'if one goes down, everyone goes down'.

Instead of righting the wrongs created by the gop, the dems are delaying things so the government can continue to abuse it's powers and they're all just afraid the public will find out about it while they're still in office.

Originally Posted by ECSuite_Russell

Instead of righting the wrongs created by the gop, the dems are delaying things so the government can continue to abuse it's powers and they're all just afraid the public will find out about it while they're still in office.

This is speculation, of course. I'm not saying you are wrong, but once the information is declassified, and it will be, we will know what is truly what.

Originally Posted by highanddry

He's an idiot because you think you don't agree with him. Since you are unaware of his major points, there is no other conclusion. In reality he is at the very least a brilliant and legendary prosecuter who has never lost...Hardly an idiot. If I run across the torrent online I'll post it but so far I can't find it.

I'm not specifically aware of his resume, but lets take it for granted that it is as you describe it.... one of a legendary prosecutor. Does that make his statements any more true? I went to the web link you sent me to, and this is what he is using to seed the book:

"My anger over the war in Iraq, some will say, is palpable in the pages of this book. If I sound too angry for some, what should I be greatly angry about"

Then, of course, there is the quote from his site you provided where he explains he has no political bias. Unfortunately, he does not seed his book sales site with any information that could be construed as evidence. So, without putting down my money to buy his book, I have to take what he has provided me, evaluate it, and make a decision. Is this guy going to provide some new information I am not aware of? I am, after all, a news and media junky. None of his advertising says that he provides some "untold facts" so the answer to that question is likely no. I then see that, self proclaimed, he is extremely against the Iraq war, and god knows I've heard the whining and crying from liberals for years on end, with every last reason why Bush is a criminal. Its no secret I don't agree with them. So, 1) this guy offers no new information and 2) by his own admission is a rabid anti-Iraq war guy, I can guess that me giving him my money would be like paying for a subscription to the Huffington Post. I just won't do it.

He may have some tidbit I've never heard before. He may lay out the same cr*p I've heard a thousand times in a more convincing way by which I may "see the light". Unfortunately, the way he has set up his marketing, he just comes across as another nut-job from the "Bush-lied" crowd.

Originally Posted by ECSuite_Russell

So disappointing, I feel like something major has happened here and most American's probably don't even know what FISA is.

A pig in a polk.