Originally Posted by dansgalaxy

Dont mean to offend... but.

Why cant this apply to christians.

I am positive many people would be SO much happier if every christian just woke up thinking, ok i belive in god.. im gonna love everyone and just be happy.

Instead you have christians who preach (to non-christians) about why they (non-christians) are living in sin etc.


Dan

I hope you know you can't offend me Dan

First, the statement I made applies to everyone in the world.

Second, let me ask you a question Dan, and just take this question at face value, If you loved someone, I mean really loved them and you knew that they were doing something that would kill them; would you try and stop them?

Originally Posted by Cheshire_cat

I hope you know you can't offend me Dan

First, the statement I made applies to everyone in the world.

Second, let me ask you a question Dan, and just take this question at face value, If you loved someone, I mean really loved them and you knew that they were doing something that would kill them; would you try and stop them?

Okay, i see your point but can i use an example of drugs.

It is well known that if the family of a drug adict try to force them into rehab etc it simply wont work, they will fight against it and remain a drug user.

But if that person chooses to change their life and goes through rehab... chances are they will stay reasonably clean...

Dan

I'd like to add - the reason all Christians are not the same is the same reason that all people are not the same - everyone is individual and inevitably will have their own take on things.

Generally, all Christians are using the same evidence (the Bible - the Word of God), but reach completely different conclusions from this. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same?

Originally Posted by whym

I'd like to add - the reason all Christians are not the same is the same reason that all people are not the same - everyone is individual and inevitably will have their own take on things.

Generally, all Christians are using the same evidence (the Bible - the Word of God), but reach completely different conclusions from this. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same?

I agree everyone different, but point is which christians are right?

Are christians like... this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AN2odAAaAJU right? (which frankly if god exists and is anything like him i could never spend enternity in his company...

or is the christians which take people for who they are and just live their lives kindly...

now i keep refering to youtube videos so heres another, this is same lady response and what she said about christians is what i would have thought should be christians attitudes...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2JLH4A...watch_response

Let's use a common example. Think of God as being your chemistry teacher. You're not going to pass his course if you don't do his homework, show up for tests, study, work on assignments, review your work, and go to class. Likewise, you're not going to be accepted into the kingdom of God if you don't show a certain level of commitment. You have to build a relationship with our savior. You have to ask for forgiveness. You have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

The bible is our rule book. The bible tells us, if you want to be with God, you do this, this how you are to live. Although being a good Christian is essentially respecting your neighbor, it also goes far beyond that.

"i think therefore i am"
rene descartes

Well Dan part of the challenge for humanity is realizing what sin is and why we sin. Sin simply means missing the mark. Granted you proclaim to be an atheist so bare with me.

Put aside your suspicion about the origin of the Bible and the existence of God for a moment and just assume that you have been given sufficient evidence to now believe both are reality. (And yes like you posted these things are another subject)

However careful examination of the Bible gives you the proper context and an accurate understanding of who and what God is. Being the source of all things and thus knowing how everything is made to be in harmony there is an inherent standard that is rightfully put in place by the only one who would have the authority and the ability to make such a standard. A standard that is governed and developed by love, wisdom, justice and power. All of which also only exist because of the standard maker.

Saving the why we sin conversation for another day let's just focus on the matter of sin itself. By definition then, missing mark or sinning is anything that falls short of the aforementioned standard. Again keep in mind even in our reality we understand this premise. For example at your place of employment you recognize that the owner of the company has the right and authority to establish a standard to be followed by all those employed by them. Anyone falling short of that is missing that mark and not adhering to the excepted standard. Of course this is not an exact analogy of what we are talking about.

So to understand the Bible's explanation of homosexuality is very simple. It falls short of the standard that we were created to live by. By definition there is no difference between shop lifting a pack of gum and stabbing 30 people. Which sounds illogical to us because we see actions in degrees. Thankfully the creator tolerates and allows us to deal with our actions in this manner. But it doesn't change reality.

So to help you get a grasp on the Bible and homosexuality, think of it like this. It is no different than adultery or premarital sex. Sexual intimacy was designed to be a pleasurable expression and the method of procreation by married couples. Again we are so far from understanding the wisdom of that, it may appear outdated or ridiculous but that is another discussion also.

So disregard all of the pseudo christian babble. Those are people who twist what the Bible actually teaches. Our creator doesn't hate anyone. But he does purpose for things to be in harmony and according to the standard that is a result of his creation.

Again putting aside the how we got to this point, there is a valid reason why man and woman were created to marry or form a union and then share in sexual relations. Any thing short of that may seem fun and exciting to us but we refuse to see the consequences and divisive nature of what is immoral. Which the fact that even in an amoral society we recognize there are such things as morals should tell us something. The question becomes who decides what crosses the line?

Which leads to other subjects but again we will save that for later.

So homosexuality has the same impact on society as adultery and recklessly jumping from bed to bed with no shame. While it may have some allure and some degree of pleasure these actions are damaging to one's self esteem and even more important a social burden on society we pretend doesn't exist.

dude, this question is interesting and have many answers. You can't really say who is right or wrong. But I'll say :"Live your life and let others live it peacefully the way they want".

So homosexuality has the same impact on society as adultery and recklessly jumping from bed to bed with no shame. While it may have some allure and some degree of pleasure these actions are damaging to one's self esteem and even more important a social burden on society we pretend doesn't exist.

I just can't see you point on this... It is just i dont see how you can say two adult males (or females) which love each other, dont force their sexuality on anyone else and just meet love, live together, and live their lives together like a "normal" hetrosexual couple. So i dont see how a gay couple which are happy with who they are, have a low self esteem or effect society in a negitive way?

I just dont see that view.

Dan

Originally Posted by ANDY-N

Well Dan part of the challenge for humanity is realizing what sin is and why we sin. Sin simply means missing the mark. Granted you proclaim to be an atheist so bare with me.

Put aside your suspicion about the origin of the Bible and the existence of God for a moment and just assume that you have been given sufficient evidence to now believe both are reality. (And yes like you posted these things are another subject)

No can do. As a devout Christian myself, I'll be the first person to say this is completely invalid. Circular logic aside, when you go around offending people with "I realize that you don't understand you're wrong, but just accept that you're wrong, and then you'll be able to finally understand why I'm right" it helps reinforce the stereotype that we, as a faith, as a group, need to shake.

Originally Posted by ANDY-N

However careful examination of the Bible gives you the proper context and an accurate understanding of who and what God is.

Even the Devil can quote scripture to support his point - religious leaders have known this for centuries.

Originally Posted by ANDY-N

So homosexuality has the same impact on society as adultery and recklessly jumping from bed to bed with no shame. While it may have some allure and some degree of pleasure these actions are damaging to one's self esteem and even more important a social burden on society we pretend doesn't exist.

This fails to explain why God chose to make a great many animals (ones he did not give intelligence, understanding, and, arguably, free will, as it depends on understanding a choice to be made) such as the famous penguins, gay.

Again, try doing what Jesus himself told all of us to do, and leave the judgment to the one above you. Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged.

We all know that killing is bad, but what about stealing, is that bad? Sure it is. "Thou shall not steal" is what we're told in the ten commandments. However, today we associate all bad/ good things with a certain degree, or weight. Giving 10 dollars to charity is being more generous than giving 5 dollars. In turn, you are being "more good".

Let's apply this knowledge to the reverse. Killing someone is worse than stealing from someone. It does make sense, however it's not how God looks at it. The fact is, they're both sins. Try to associate it with something that we're familiar with.

Le's say that you receive a bead for every sin you commit. First you objectify women. That's 1 bead. Next you steal some candy. That's 22 beads. Lastly, you kill some guy. That's 3 beads. Let's focus on those beads ... are they any different? No, they're not. The fact remains that you received the same bead, for every sin you committed. All those sins impact you in the same way.

Now, we can go ahead and apply that to homosexuality. If we're taught that it's a sin, then it would, in fact, be equal to all other sins. Whether you choose to believe it or not, this still remains a fact. You can't escape the truth, only ignore it.

I think that's what Andy meant, among other things, in his post above.

I understand what you mean i just can't understand why you belive it... I just cant seem to get into my head how people can decide that a sin is a sin from what a book suggests...



Dan

Originally Posted by dansgalaxy

I understand what you mean i just can't understand why you belive it... I just cant seem to get into my head how people can decide that a sin is a sin from what a book suggests...

The thing is, it's not the book telling us what to do. The Bible is simply a medium through which God communicates with us - the same as prayer. The book is a guide for life, showing us what God wants us to do in our lives, and what we should avoid if we want to follow His will.

It is difficult for atheists to understand this, because it's only once you really experience God's love that you WANT to do His will. By the way, if you reply back saying something similar, i.e. "I still don't get why you should trust a book", then this thread really isn't going anywhere!

You follow the book if you believe in it.

this can go four ways:
1. I believe in God and the bible - I'm correct : I go to Heaven.
2. I believe in God and the bible - I'm wrong : Nothing Happens
3. I don't believe in God and the bible - I'm right : Nothing Happens
4. I don't believe in God and the bible - I'm wrong - I go to Hell.

So, I'm really not missing out on anything. Regardless if it's wrong or right, I'm still living out an honest and truthful life.

It is not a matter of a book.

What I tried to explain and apparently did a poor job is simple. If you do an honest amount of study and research to prove to yourself the validity of the Bible and therefore the source of the information then you will concede the fact that there is an Almighty and a Creator.

Now let me stress I am not suggesting like, learning newbie insists that I am, that you believe anything you are not convinced of.

What I am saying is if you do become convinced of that, as I am, then you understand that the Creator sets the appropriate standards of right and wrong. He in turn created humanity with the ability to distinguish between right and wrong.

So your question was are all christians like this, is being answered from my standpoint as a Christian. I am not implying any judgement only my perspective.

So what I am saying is very simple to understand. Imagine the standards as a bullseye and every arrow (our actions) that misses as being a sin. Human beings will contend well at least this arrow was closer than another but that is irrelevent in the big picture.

So why some may feel that two loving, caring gay people have no adverse effect on society compared to a murderer etc it is a matter of degrees. A man may leave his wife because he honeslty in love with another woman but that doesn't make it right. Again put that in context with what I am saying. And none of this is meant to sound condemning.

So why parts of society have tried to separate homosexual relationships as different, they are not if you agree on the standards that I have outlined. And why people may find some personal benefits from such a relationship, it works against our designed nature. You can use a book to hold a table steady also but that doesn't mean that is good for the book in the long run. It is not the intended purpose for a book to hold a table up.

Now granted that is a silly analogy but I am trying to make a simple point. If you want to determine the social burden and harm of immoral acts you can consider the endless studies done on the psychological impact and the deteriorization of families to decide if you think it has a damaging effect or not.

My comment on that was from my view. I think it is clearly evident what immorality has done to society and the human family.

And "learrning newbie" please stop trying to explain my comments. Your 'political style rhetoric' is bit over the top. Just because you missed my point doesn't mean you have to impute motives to my statements. And if I did a poor job expressing myself that is my problem.