Hi,

Okay, first off this isnt aimed at being against all christians... Just want some feedback..

Okay seen this video http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y3iRlWsmOY on youtube which is basically a douchebag telling us God hates Homosexuals...

And states things like Murder and Stealing are the same... =/

I know there are quite a few christain/religious people on this forum, and basically i would like to see what other christians.. and athiests/agnostics or people who follow another belief think about this.

Now me personal i am a Atheist, because i personally find religion illogical, and simply can not put faith in scripturs written hundreds of years ago by men. (Yes, i know many christians are adiment that God wrote these him/her-self and willed the disciples to write them... and he also willed the churches to ignore any scriptures which contradicted others, or which even remotly questionned Jesus divinity... but thats another debate... )
But bottom line i quite agree with this kind ladies response (and all of her other videos i have seen.) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eY1z7q...eature=related

Just like some thoughts

Dan

I think she's wrong. Same sex relationships are unnatural because of the fact that they can't procreate, which is, essentially, the meaning of life.

I don't believe that homosexuals should be the center of all our negative attention, and that they should be publicly humiliated. That in itself is also a sin. However, I DO believe that it is wrong.

Originally Posted by andrei155

Same sex relationships are unnatural because of the fact that they can't procreate

I know a whole lot of homosexual couples with kids that could prove you wrong on that one

What about heterosexual couples who can't procreate due to infertility issues? Are they unnatural too?

The Bible tells us that all sins are equal before God. We don't see them as such, because to us a murder is far worse than stealing food. But, in both cases, Commandments are being broken.

The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. It also says eating shellfish is a sin, that adulterers should be stoned to death, and that we should keep slaves. Of these 4 ancient and barbaric practices, we've abandoned 3. When it comes to homosexuality, we're still living in the stone age, according to the morals of people who lived in caves.

I'd say the Bible is divinely inspired, but written by man. Whenever Moses brought word from God, his followers weren't exactly receptive. That same process has led us from God's direct word to the record we have today.

Originally Posted by jacob

I know a whole lot of homosexual couples with kids that could prove you wrong on that one

Homosexual couples can't procreate ... so you can't prove me wrong on that one...

Originally Posted by jacob

What about heterosexual couples who can't procreate due to infertility issues? Are they unnatural too?

No, that's very different.

John, I think the first video explained it well, with the references to civil and moral law. Jesus relinquished us from the civil laws with his death. We no longer keep slaves, or stone adulterers to death. However, moral law remains the same, and that's why our views have remain persistent.

I think it's actually relatively clear cut with all of this - one of the youth leaders at this Christian youth festival I was at said what I've been thinking for a long time on the issue:

The sin is the practice of homosexuality (and of course lust too, whether thoughts or actions). Being physically attracted to people of the same sex isn't, in my opinion, the sin, but acting on these feelings is. I don't think God "hates fags" or anything - Jesus said he loves the sinners, and that's all of us.

In my opinion, gay Christians should stay celibate. It's obviously up to them to decide whether or not they do that, in the same way it's up to Christians to decide whether or not they are going to have sex before marriage. But I think that's what God would want. Furthermore, I believe the rules in the Bible are there for a reason - not because God just wants to tell people exactly what they can and cannot do and control them, but because He knows what's best. I believe His ideal is a stable family unit, with parents being together, as this is what is best for children growing up - for that reason, adultery is condemned. If murder was not condemned in the Bible, then it would be acceptable to go round killing fellow humans, causing untold heartache and an unstable world - therefore, God condemned it. Sex before marriage is condemned, probably because God knows that children should grow up in a stable, loving environment, and marriage is usually more stable than just a relationship. What I'm trying to say is that these laws are there for a reason - because God knows what is best for people.

While it might not be very clear to us, in our modern society, why God condemned homosexuality, I believe there is a reason behind it. Procreation for one thing. I would trust God's judgment on this topic over man's - God is beyond our understanding and far more intelligent. There is a reason for active homosexuality being a sin, so I'm trusting that God knows what He's doing!

Dan

Originally Posted by andrei155

"Homosexual" couples can't procreate ... so you can't prove me wrong on that one...

No, that's very different.

how can they not procreate? they procreate very much the same way that heterosexual couples with infertility problems do (which isn't done any differently) or procreate in the exact same way that heterosexual couples without infertility problems procreate.

can two men make a baby with each others gametes? obviously not. can two women make a baby with each others gametes? obviously not. just because they are gay doesn't mean they can't produce offspring - they are not any more infertile or incapable of conceiving then heterosexuals are.

if you are saying that "Same sex relationships are unnatural because of the fact that they can't procreate", why is that same brush not applied to heterosexuals who don't (or can't) procreate? seems like a double standard to me.

as for proving you wrong, would you like to meet my son? or any of the other queerlings that I know of who have been conceived in queer relationships? my girlfriend and I are and are not considered in a same-sex relationship depending on your perception and education on gender and sexuality.

Be aware that this topic is highly controversial and people are easily offended by the language different people use.

Great, i seemed to have sparked a debate ... just glade its being discussed properly ...

Firstly, can i just say learning newbie, frankly i think you are my idea of an ideal christain, you can take religion and think about it rationally and apply reason to your actions and belief.

I have to admit, i do tend to have a problem with (some) christians and my biggest is that they take something from the bible and just use it against people and take is absolute truth and gods word etc etc, but i personally think that you shouldnt Need a book to tell you what is right or wrong, it should be what you feel. Parents (homo or hetrosexual) teach their children that stealing is wrong being good and kind is.. good. But what really annouyed about this guys video was how he said "it's not what i think, its because god wants me to" or something like that about his homphobia, which i just think is so wrong! You shouldnt take huge predjuce against a whole collection of people because of a very old book, which we have established was written, translated modified and selected by groups of men, be it inspired by God or not.

Bad example time, or maybe a good example... Films are often inspired by events or people, but because of the beliefs (eg what they think is good and will sell more tickets/DVD's) the story/message is obviously padded out and their own views and feelings are added to the story. Its just my thoughts.

Dan

If God came to me, and told me that he doesn't want me drinking anymore coke, then so be it. I would not question him, nor would I think twice about ever drinking coke again. The same thing applies with that book you hate so much, Dan. It's written by people far wiser than you are. Most of it should not be taken literally, however, there are key things you should learn from it. Homosexuality being one of them. Although, I agree with you, that guy has some serious homophobia, he outlines one very important fact. The Bible is very clear with it's views on homosexuality.

Jacob, there is a matter of choice here. People who are infertile, cannot choose to repair themselves, and have children. Homosexuals, can however choose to not act upon it. Daniel (whym) outlined a very good point above. I've heard this speech too. Homosexuals are capable of procreating.

Jacob, please don't take my opinions the wrong way. I'm not here to offend anyone. Sorry if I may come off that way.

Originally Posted by andrei155

John, I think the first video explained it well, with the references to civil and moral law. Jesus relinquished us from the civil laws with his death. We no longer keep slaves, or stone adulterers to death. However, moral law remains the same, and that's why our views have remain persistent.

Well, yeah, mostly, but we have to be careful with this logic. Jesus told people in his day how they should treat their slaves. Don't beat them so hard their teeth fall out, or you'll have to set them free. Jesus clearly didn't intend for us to stop having slaves.

I've seen people use that argument to condemn Christianity itself, and that's not what I'm trying to do here. There are a lot of things in the Bible that conflict with each other, or, at least, seem to. There's a lot of poetry in there (ever read the sexually explicit Song of Solomon?), and a lot to be taken literally. There are "laws" snuck in by men. The most important conflict is between Jesus's own commandment to love your brother, to turn the other cheek, etc, and everything else. At the end of the day, each of us (Christian or not) have to navigate that conflict ourselves, and come to our own peace.

Most of us have chosen to behave as if all human life is sacred. We take Christ's message of love and put it above slavery and stoning adulterers. I include homosexuals in that list. And most other categories of people. I feel that God demands I love my fellow man, and leave the judgment to the one above me.

Originally Posted by andrei155

Jacob, there is a matter of choice here. People who are infertile, cannot choose to repair themselves, and have children. Homosexuals, can however choose to not act upon it. Daniel (whym) outlined a very good point above. I've heard this speech too. Homosexuals are capable of procreating.

Jacob, please don't take my opinions the wrong way. I'm not here to offend anyone. Sorry if I may come off that way.

no offense taken andrei - i respect your faith and your views of it. certain interpretations of the bible are something i have a hard time understanding because they don't sit right with my own values - but that doesn't make your values "wrong", just different from my own. it puzzles me that homosexuals are considered unnatural because of something that they are capable of doing (albeit not in the traditional sense) but the same brush isn't applied fairly across the board.

i do agree that you can choose how to act and what to act upon - but i also feel that if someone wants to act on their feelings of homosexuality, that they shouldn't be judged any more then someone who chooses to live their life based on how the bible says they should. i'm a firm believer in not judging people for what makes them happy and that wherever their faith lies is what their truth is, what protections them in life and what happens in their afterlife.

Isn't it included in the bible or in the rules that they should not judge others? well, what in the world do they think they are doing now?

Hmm, I find this interesting how you seem to have different types of Christians here...

There seems to be those who are Christian and choose to understand the bible as a rough guide to morals and can use reason to take the key points of love thy neighbour etc and then there are those which take it at face value only, but even then i just dont understand how these christians use the logic of "Ok its bad to stone people and keep slaves so that bit i disagree with... even though i belive god wrote everyword of the bible... but what is said about homosexuality is absolute.

It just seems to me the bible is as asbsolute about other things which i think most (sane) christians wouldnt dream of doing.

And i have to say that i think the idea of a homosexual, being gay but choosing not to act on it is just silly, why should someone not be able to have intimacy and love and live a full life with a partner? Just because they happen to be of the same sex, they can love each other just as much... And i mean lets look at this logically... u have a lot more in comman with the same sex than the opposite lol



All very interesting though.

Dan

Originally Posted by dansgalaxy

And i have to say that i think the idea of a homosexual, being gay but choosing not to act on it is just silly, why should someone not be able to have intimacy and love and live a full life with a partner? Just because they happen to be of the same sex, they can love each other just as much... And i mean lets look at this logically... u have a lot more in comman with the same sex than the opposite lol

Sounds like George Bush: "if it feels good, do it!". Of course, that doesn't make it right or not. Some people struggle with lust, others with jealousy, and some others with homosexuality. Being lustful and acting on it might feel good, but it doesn't make it right. I think we all have different weaknesses.

I think that it would be hard to argue that there isn't a basic moral set, which all mentally healthy people regardless of their religous beliefs or lack of them share. Don't kill people or cause other people pain. However the "moral codes" that many Christians take from the bible that go beyond the aforementioned fundamental concepts, are actually negative ones. No-one would believe from birth that they were going to go to hell for actions (such as the consensual practice of homosexuality), which do not harm anybody. The concept that something is an undeniably negative concept, which is not preached by atheism yet is by Christianity.
This is a 'moral' concept which has been taken from an ancient script , of which there are several different interpretations. Are those Christians who believe that homosexuality is evil because of what they interpret from the bible - are they comfortable conceding that such concepts that they believe go against the fundamentally peaceful maxim that harming others is the moral groundstone in that you are incarcerating people who have not harmed others?

Originally Posted by whym

Being lustful and acting on it might feel good, but it doesn't make it right. I think we all have different weaknesses.

Sorry, just a short one this time - being lustful and acting on it feels good because it is the biological impulse behind the existence of the human race. Being lustful and not acting on it - well lets just say that being monastic hasn't worked out too well for a series of priests and small boys.

Originally Posted by andrei155

Jacob, there is a matter of choice here. People who are infertile, cannot choose to repair themselves, and have children. Homosexuals, can however choose to not act upon it. Daniel (whym) outlined a very good point above. I've heard this speech too. Homosexuals are capable of procreating.

My (lady) wife and I are both fertile, capable of procreating, and choose not to. A lot of reasons went into that - one of them is how there will be more than 7,000,000,000 people on the planet before either of us are dead. People are going to be having wars over clean drinking (and farming) water, and other resources, the way we do over oil today.

That's pretty unnatural, and makes the wife and me as sinful as homosexuals, doesn't it?

In nature, most intelligent species do some level of deciding how many kids (from zero to thousands) they should have. Some scientists think that's why birds chirp together. If there are a lot of children, it will be harder to feed all of them, and as a parent you'll spend your energy and food trying to raise a child that dies. If you had 1 less child instead, you could put more care into the ones who survive. Maybe (like the gay penguins suggest) homosexuality is in fact very natural?

I try to avoid debates, mainly because I am just not good at them and I never really have very strong opinions. But I do have strong feelings about this one.

God does NOT hate homosexual people.

I can't watch the videos right now, because I am at work, but what Dan posted - saying this guy claims that things like murder and stealing are basically the same - is the key to my argument.

I believe that God does see sin as sin. And even though in our eyes and our reality, it is obvious that murder is worse than stealing, God sees that both of these things were wrong. Its like the difference between stubbing your toe and breaking it. One is definitely worse than the other, but they still hurt. lol!

Anyway, using the logic that "stealing is as bad as murder", then you could say the same thing as jaywalking is as bad as being a homosexual. Jaywalking is breaking the law, and God told us to follow the laws, so jaywalking is a sin, right? Is there anyone around who hasn't jaywalked? I am pretty sure even the guy on the video has jaywalked. So does God hate everyone who has jaywalked?? NO!

A lot of Christians shun gay people and don't welcome them to church (even if they are "celibate"). I think this is totally wrong. It would be the same thing as shunning someone who is divorced (even if they aren't remarried). It would also be the same as shunning an un-married mother. Do you think Jesus would act like that? I don't. He spent a lot of his time with theives and prostitutes and other "sinners". He loved everyone.

Oh, and I also agree that God tells us not to judge. So this is another example of how this guy is contradicting himself. He is judging gay people, so he is sinning. So I wonder if God hates him?

I kinda have to agree with that Learning Newbie...

I mean if, for the sake of argument, i was "christian" and believed in god... frankly i wouldnt want a bible but i think i could still belive in god, and i mean who is to say he didnt one day think... you know i didnt think this through when i started there was too now look at the buggers! 7 Billion.. =/ hmm i know lets make 10% (a rough figure of how many people are aparently gay/bi) homosexual, that should slow down the rate of procreation.. and i mean theres hundreds of thousands of orphans.. they really do need homes.

How can someone stand there and speak for god... to be (if i was god) that would seem like a logical and all knowing thing to do...

Dan