Politics and Religion Forum

**cbwm** · 08-29-2008, 10:52 AM

After watching Barack Obama's very mediocre speech last night, I felt less like voting for him than ever. Bill Clintons speech the previous night ROCKED by the way... you got to love Slick Willy. 6 pt jump in the tracking poll, just from that speech.

In his speech, Barack finally hit some of the policy items he would undertake, and it became clear that he is no more committed to fiscal responsibility than George W. Bush. Interestingly, even the Mainstream media picked up on this somewhat, but then quickly moved on to what a landmark and historical event this was on the anniversary of Dr. Kings "I have a dream" speech.

Acknowledgably, it was an historic event, but it got me thinking. Barack now has the support of 96% of blacks in America by some estimates. I doubt anyone is going to argue that at a large portion of those votes are based on the color of his skin. It made me wonder what people would say if McCain supporters showed up in droves to vote for the "white" candidate.

To throw a bit more gas on the fire, Emil Jones(Black), president of the Illinois senate took the time to call a fellow female Democrat at the convention who supported Hillary Clinton an "Uncle Tom", in front of several witnesses. I wonder what Dr.King would have to say about that kind of racist rhetoric coming from supposedly educated elected leadership.

Though Obama cant be held responsible for what comes out of the mouth of someone like Jones, the placement of his acceptance speech on the anniversary of Dr.King's speech was unquestionably designed to create a subtle pressure to vote for him out of some type of moral obligation. Personally, I liked him better during the primaries when he staunchly struck his race from his campaign rhetoric.

It makes me wonder if a Colin Powell, Condi Rice, or Michael Steele, people without 20 years of close association and friendship with known racists like Farakahn and Wright, were running for president, whether we would feel that same pressure today. Somehow, I doubt it.

It makes me wonder, if Barack looses, will that be taken as an indication that whites in America are racists? If so, to what end.

**Learning Newbie** · 08-29-2008, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbwm

Acknowledgably, it was an historic event, but it got me thinking. Barack now has the support of 96% of blacks in America by some estimates.

Fox Noise calls this their style guidelines, and Wikipedia calls it "weasel words". When you back up some crazy bit of nonsense with "some people" to avoid having to provide an actual point of reference that people can go verify, well, you're lying by short hand.

Watch - I'll give it a try.

By some estimates, every blogger is getting a unicorn.

That was fun!

**cbwm** · 08-29-2008, 03:02 PM

**Learning Newbie** · 08-29-2008, 04:36 PM

I spot checked two of these and found 72 and 84 % respectively. I'm sure in some isolated incident the number reached 96 %, and I'm equally sure that you know that doesn't represent the whole, yet you're describing it as if it does.

**Feydakin** · 08-29-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Gallup has newer polls showing the higher unified support numbers since the primaries, but Im not a paying member.

Hmmmmm

**cbwm** · 08-29-2008, 09:52 PM

lol. Kudos. Successful derail. I suppose you feel 74% and 86% are representative, lets say like Hillary's representation amongst female voters? Not that it matters, but the spot checks I came up with were between 73 and 90(Virginia). If it helps you feel I've avoided the "weasel words" can we just say "median support around or above 80%"? The remainder of the post plays out nearly exactly the same.

**Learning Newbie** · 09-01-2008, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbwm

lol. Kudos. Successful derail.

Ok, then, let's get to the heart of your accusation. According to you, all black people who vote for Obama are doing so out of racism, and for no other reason. By your foul smelling "logic," then, all white people who vote for McCain, must also be doing so out of racism. Great observation!

You don't believe that, and I don't believe that, but you still don't mind saying it as if it were true.

Following your trail of putrid "logic," we see that there is no other possible reason for black people to vote for Obama - but, shockingly, there are legitimate (or, at least, non racism) reasons for white people to vote Obama. Are you saying whites are able to recognize the parts of Obama's agenda that will help America (especially compared to GWB's reign of error) and black people aren't?

Maybe the kind hogwash you're putting forward is an example of why the Republican party has trouble attracting votes?

**cbwm** · 09-01-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

According to you, all black people who vote for Obama are doing so out of racism, and for no other reason.

Not what I said. I said his support amongst blacks (90% in some cases) is disproportionate to his support amongst every other group of people. I alleged that the grossly disproportionate voting pattern was caused by some, not all, of his black constituency voting based on the color of his skin rather than his views, policies, and experience (or lack thereof). If you have some other explanation for it, I would LOVE to hear it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Maybe the kind hogwash you're putting forward is an example of why the Republican party has trouble attracting votes?

Interestingly, in an election year with the perception of a recession and the sitting Republican president under 30% approval, the candidate of Republican party is running dead even in the polls on the day after the DNC. By all historical accounts, it seems it is the Democratic party that is having problems attracting votes.

**Learning Newbie** · 09-01-2008, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbwm

I alleged that the grossly disproportionate voting pattern was caused by some, not all, of his black constituency voting based on the color of his skin rather than his views, policies, and experience (or lack thereof). If you have some other explanation for it, I would LOVE to hear it.

First, I objected when you said 96 % of black people, because 96 % of black (or white or Asian or Khoisan) people will never agree on anything beyond pain is bad. The real number seems to be in the mid 80s, although some pundits are claiming support in the 90s among blacks for Barack Obama.

Obama's closing speech at the DNC was universally denounced by black people. Obama was the first black man nominated by either (major) political party to run for president, and became such on Martin Luthor King's anniversary. Obama didn't even mention Martin. The "black community" (there isn't a single black community - no people is so monolithic) detests this.

So, yes, there's another explanation, but it's multi pronged. That means there isn't one simple factor you can point to, you actually have to take several together, in context. Which has been a challenge for Republicans. But the simple test of logic and common sense make clear your proposal isn't the answer. And so does the reversal test - if racism explains black people saying they'll vote for Obama, we have to ask if racism explains toothless people voting for McCain. It's pretty obvious the answer is no, not significantly.

**serandfae** · 09-01-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Obama's closing speech at the DNC was universally denounced by black people. Obama was the first black man nominated by either (major) political party to run for president, and became such on Martin Luthor King's anniversary. Obama didn't even mention Martin. The "black community" (there isn't a single black community - no people is so monolithic) detests this.

You do realize you've contradicted yourself here, don't you? A racist is someone who consistently makes judgments for or against another based on race. So, that would make Jesse Jackson, whose comments toward Obama not long after that momentous funeral for the so-called "N-word", what? It would make him (surprise!) a RACIST. Who knows, maybe Jackson'll do for Obama what Malcom X's crowd did for him.

At least you got the last part right: There isn't a single black community. As a matter of fact, many black people are conservative Republicans, and I'd be curious to see in what percentage. While Obama can't seem to decide whether he was some poor kid that grew up in the Midwest or a person of privelege who grew up in Hawaii, he has tried to keep race out of his campaign and let others do the commenting. What's wrong with that?

Hey, while the black community is supposedly universally denouncing Obama's speech, why don't we get some comments from Colin Powell or Condoleeza Rice?

tim

**cbwm** · 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

First, I objected when you said 96 % of black people, because 96 % of black (or white or Asian or Khoisan) people will never agree on anything beyond pain is bad. The real number seems to be in the mid 80s, although some pundits are claiming support in the 90s among blacks for Barack Obama.

Sorry. Like I said, I don't have membership with Gallup so I cant search for every poll they have. I managed to dig it up by other means.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/108040/Ca...port-Race.aspx

The number you requested is 93%. NINETY THREE PERCENT!!!!

Secondly, you are absolutely right when you say that 90% of people dont agree on practically anything, which substantiates my argument even more. I'm not trying to say there is some conspiracy, or that they are voting as a monolithic block.

I will also concede that ABSOLUTELY there is some portion, possibly even a double digit percentage, of (toothless?) whites that will vote for McCain for purely racial motivations.

I'm also willing to buy into the idea that there are a combination of factors (in addition to race) that propel his black support to 93% while his support amongst other races averages around 50%. Care to clue me in as to what those other factors might be?

By the way, I want an acknowledgment, now that I've provided the proof, that I did not use "weasel words". Say it!!! CBWM... YOU WERE RIGHT!!!!!

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by serandfae

As a matter of fact, many black people are conservative Republicans, and I'd be curious to see in what percentage.

According to this poll... 7%. Can that be right?

**serandfae** · 09-01-2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by serandfae

As a matter of fact, many black people are conservative Republicans, and I'd be curious to see in what percentage.

According to this poll... 7%. Can that be right?

Not in North Carolina. We've been a red state for quite awhile.

tim

**cbwm** · 09:46 AM

Say It!!!!