Interesting how you failed to back up your statement that those launching rockets from Gaza were a few "Desperate" people. I suppose I'll take that as you conceding the point.

Obviously there is a difference between raiding a terrorist hideout in a civilized nation such as the U.K., and trying to remove terrorists from houses in a nation that promotes terrorism. Lets be honest. Your people elected Hamas to power in Palestine. The words, "A people deserves its leader" never proved to be so true. Hitler was democratically elected and when the tide of that war turned, thousands of civilians and children lost their lives as the allied forces bombed the living cr*p out of Dresden and many other large cities in Germany.

Perhaps your rant flies better at the Madrassa, but I don't think your going to find too many buying into what your selling outside of the devout. The price of oil is under $40 a barrel which means Argentina, Russia, Iran, and most of the middle east oil economies have less than 30% of the funds they had a few months ago. Those low fuel prices serve to shore up western businesses by reducing their cost of operation. Russia is going to have to recall "Peter the Great" and put it back in mothballs because they arent going to be able to pay to keep it in the water.

I especially enjoyed the human interest pieces on the evils of Israels bombings. It doesnt take a genius to know that war is horid. It would be a lot less horid if your elected terrorist governance would quit hiding behind widows and orphans and either make honest peace or war in the open. It takes a true coward to pick a fight and then hide behind children in an effort to gain sympathy.

Originally Posted by witnesstheday

remember, Nelson Mandela and Mohandas Gandhi were BOTH labelled terrorists for most of their youthful lives - in Mandela's case quite far into old age by the "ALLIED FORCES AND GOVERNMENTS"

Interesting. Gahndi got the British out of his country by getting his people to put down their weapons and use passive resistance. If the Palestinians could get their act together, remove Hamas from power, and take a page from Gahndi's book, they might get somewhere. Given that they just elected people who stand for everything Gahndi did not, I don't see it happening any time soon (in my lifetime).

Very angry'
Israel says it is targeting Hamas and not Gazan civilians

I also spoke to Abu Ahmad, a commander in the Hamas police, which were targeted in the first wave of airstrikes. He said he used to manage 25 people, but had lost four of them. He said the police are "not involved at all" in military activities, such as firing rockets - but he clearly supported such actions.
The force's role was to "maintain law and order", he said, by which he meant a range of activities from stopping crime to tackling spies.
"Our role is just as important as those firing rockets [at Israeli towns]," he said.
He said they had been dealing with cases such as a bakery manager who had doubled his prices leading many people to complain.
But as armed members of Hamas, Israel sees the police as targets.

We are very sad and angry about losing our son, but this is our role, this is our land


Bereaved father

"We are unable to function normally, we have no cars, we can't even wear police uniforms because of the Israeli drones," said Mr Ahmad.
I also went to meet a Hamas family which lost two people. One was a bodyguard for the head of the police; his cousin was among the trainee Hamas police officers killed on Saturday during their graduation ceremony.
Most of the streets in the area were closed, a mourning tent had been set up and a big poster of the Hamas leader Ismail Haniya was on display.
Despite their losses, some of those who have lost family members are resolute. "We will not hold up the white flag, we will not sacrifice our sons," they say.
"We are very sad and angry about losing our son, but this is our role, this is our land," the father of the bodyguard said to me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7807311.stm

(new police recruits killed in their graduation ceremony - does it remind you of al qa'eda in iraq?)




Telling Hamas not to defend themselves is liking telling France and Poland and Belgium and Britain not to defend themselves in WW2 against Hitler

Telling Israel to remove its illegal occupation is like telling Hitler to remove Hitler's illegal occupation.

If someone was bombing your children, you'd stand up and fight them.



EVERYONE in gaza has lost someone in the last week - they ALL have a friend or relative who has died.

I think as long as state terrorists and apologists justify bombing civilians with your arguments it is wise for people to firmly stick to an anti-apartheid against anyone taking that attitude and their money. Total boycott. I shall be happy to lead the way - I'm gearing myself and my mechanisms up to make 2009 not just a profitable year for me but one in which I take away the profit and means for making money from as MANY ENEMIES OF PALESTINE as I can.

And on that note, at 7.50am on friday 2nd january, I shall hereby get stuck into my work some more!

This is going to get really boring if you cant follow a thread or a chain of logic. You throw out one ridiculous indefensible assertion, then move on to the next without even so much as trying to defend its merits. Its not a conversation, its spam. So in that spirit, Ill throw out one last thought in response to your most recent post as something to mull over.

Originally Posted by witnesstheday

Telling Hamas not to defend themselves is liking telling France and Poland and Belgium and Britain not to defend themselves in WW2 against Hitler

Telling Israel to remove its illegal occupation is like telling Hitler to remove Hitler's illegal occupation.

Given what Hamas has done to Palestines formerly democratic government, I'd say the tag "Hitler" fits much better over Palestine's leadership. Sad considering at one point, Arafat, via peacible means, even had a US president offering the possiblilty of acknowledging the Palestinian state. Of course when you elected Hamas to power, all that went down the toilet and there has been nothing but non-stop military attacks on Israel ever since.

I'm saying you make a good point. A nation has the right to defend itself and since Hamas has been demonstrated there will be no diplomatic solution to this problem, it all boils down to a simple fight. Given that a fight doesnt end until one party has lost the will to fight, and given that militarily speaking, Israel has the means of turning Gaza into a glass parking lot, the outcome is pretty much predetermined. I think you can expect a lot more dead palestinians before this is over, and probably a ground occupation. Pushed far enough, you could be looking at dissolution of the palestinian state.

Is it unreasaonable to expect a little guy gets his *** kicked after kicking a big guy in the nuts? Where the hell is the common sense.

Propaganda war: trusting what we see?



By Paul Reynolds
World affairs correspondent, BBC News website


Israel has tried to take the initiative in the propaganda war over Gaza but, in one important instance, its version has been seriously challenged.
The incident raises the question of how to interpret video taken from the air.
Israel released video of an air attack on 28 December, which appeared to show rockets being loaded onto a truck. The truck and those close to it were then destroyed by a missile.


Israeli footage of the truck being attacked

This was clear evidence, the Israelis said, of how accurate their strikes were and how well justified. A special unit it has set up to coordinate its informational plan put the video onto YouTube as part of its effort to use modern means of communications to get Israel's case across.
The YouTube video has a large caption on it saying "Grad missiles being loaded onto the Hamas vehicle." As of Saturday morning UK time, more than 260,000 people had watched it.
Different version
It turned out, however, that a 55-year-old Gaza resident named Ahmed Sanur, or Samur, claimed that the truck was his and that he and members of his family and his workers were moving oxygen cylinders from his workshop.

Ahmed Sanur is challenging Israel's claim that rockets were targeted

This workshop had been damaged when a building next door was bombed by the Israelis and he was afraid of looters, he said.
The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem put Mr Sanur's account on its website, together with a photograph of burned out oxygen cylinders.
Mr Sanur said that eight people, one of them his son, had been killed. He subsequently told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz: "These were not Hamas, they were our children... They were not Grad missiles."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7809371.stm


That's some seriously evil stuff! Blowing up ordinary people, killing people's families and employees - lying and pretending they are militants and they're just honest people - and then ensuring that international press can't get anywhere near it.

Thank God British people have such stiff upper lips - and keep on fighting even in the face of death! I respect more than ever before all those aid workers, activists and journalists striving to help the people of gaza even though their lives are now firmly at risk!

Long live peace. Down with warmongerers.

Still... hitler's massacre of jews led to a state called Israel - the israeli massacres of palestinians are leading to a single palestinian-state solution with the israelis RIGHTLY as the minority in someone else's country - they can have representation and votes, but the country "Israel" WILL be "wiped off the map" and replaced with "palestine" - only peacefully, of course, but it's clear that the pro-israel lobby are NOT the peaceful lobby. It is their opponents who will win.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m50381&hd=&size=1&l=e

If I switch my sense of allegiance back to London, since I am by birth stuck with the fact that whatever mountain of money I make can't go to mecca just yet, I doubt I can get in(to Jerusalem) as a tourist that easily, I have to (mostly) stay at home and figure out how to help UK businesses survive the recession. (Although I'm going to the caribbean, and if I CAN I'm going via Jerusalem).

I don't think I really have any allegiance to business interests in the USA or any part of Europe that is propped up by the federalist euro and its new "Holy" Roman Empire.

So I have to now turn to the task of helping rebuild Britain. After all war defeats there is rebuilding. The economic war is already over. This is the wild west that follows the deaths of "civilisations"... Besides, I want a giant building full of employees. Doesn't everyone? Property's cheap in canary wharf. Even business property's gone through the floor, moreover. And the amazingly funny thing - the property sales and rentals teams are now renting out total pieces of cack to property renters for 1000 to 2000 a month, things not worth 300. They use the exuse that "the sales decline has boosted the rentals market" when that's just rubbish. 1 million joblosses in London will one day appear as the "tally so far", and then the illusion is going to just evaporate. The last straw breaks and about 80% of the UK property market finally goes completely under, and drowns. They cling on to us, and if you let them have your hand they'll pull you in.

Of course, once I have 100k to 1million saved, possibly in UK government bonds, I can seriously consider how to create my business in Palestine! I have a schedule of about 40 to 50 businesses to diversify into as those cited money targets, each in its own turn, find themselves accomplished. I can easily create remote offices, even in the USA and other nations needing social rebuilding. Now Obesy is President I think they'll finally get rid of Guantanamo Bay and I'll feel safe to travel to America, knowing that innocent people can't be abused routinely as part of a paranoia-driven psychological entry-barrier system!

Out of 100k, 10k would be the "palestine fund". Some of it for busfare to go to the palestinian consulate/embassy-equivalent not far from where I live. Right by where I went to school.

On another forum, another webmaster forum, in their politics thread, I saw the same title as this one "israelis show their true colours" - but with one or two words added to the title. A coincidence? Content-theft? The fact that it's the only thing a lot of people are severely perturbed by outside their normal daily lives?

Anyway, I'm done here. We should let it lie. I should not label ALL Israelis the same way. I mean, in Britain the general sentiment is massively against the Iraq War and Afghanistan War - everyone across the country, including the soldiers and government, wants to end them, only the capitalists want it all. They love it. The blood and the gold, eh?

Maybe that thread ought to be moved into here - gold is definitely political not general! And its present shifts and that of the dollar are aligned to Israeli expansionism, so that's economic as well as political, the israeli incursion - it's done for both votes AND money!

Children's blood (both sides) sold.

I read recently that Israel had blown up at least 30 of its own people, several of them died, in tank fire of their own - they blew up a building they had already occupied. You can't pretend they're really trained to be careful not to kill palestinian children and other civilians?! Still, if you really think that, go to gaza. As a civilian you have nothing to fear. Book into the gaza hilton.

By the way the reason gold is very important to all of us here is that in the UK, where both us lot, the british businesses, and even US businesses wisely keeping their profits invested in strong currencies like the pound, are coming close to being neutralized in terms of the power of our currency. We don't have the euro, but if the euro is worth about 5 cents less than us, we're almost neck and neck. They have turned our pound into a euro on the inside. It's a euro in pound's clothing! The defeat of the UK currency means that business profits in london and the rest of britain are starting to become worth less and less and less, globally.

Gold has become the main bandwagon the money-laden have been jumping on in order to save their money from the vesuvius of our times.

This gold price explosion is unnatural. ALL know that it will peak relatively fast (inside a few more weeks or months or quarters) and then it will crash down to a level still higher than where it started a few months ago, but nowhere near its peak, which is driven up by panic buyers. I've given up watching. Numbers cannot map out the location of paranoia and bursting bubbles.

Oil was exploding like mad, and then it dived into an abyss of zero.

So for us, the online businesses, the future of our currency in the UK, the pound, or of those of us in the "eurozone", and of anyone in the USA, this represents one of about 5 big fronts on which our profits are being shrunken from the outside. But of course I'm a vivid analyst, and what I'm saying will only really start to become obvious to society at large in about 6 to 18 months inside the first possible final trough point of that crash (50 to 60% of property value lost, 70% of uk finance industry destroyed, 40% of uk retail destroyed, 90% of uk in debt, etc)

Just my 80% (and 10% for my manager, or maybe 20% to 30%)

The whole situation is irritating to me. While Israel continues to build settlements (which is totally wrong IMO), Hamas responds by shooting rockets into Israel, which is completely retarded. They can't just expect Israel not to defend themselves. This doesn't mean the Palestinians shouldn't ultimately have a state of their own, nor are all of their opinions wrong (they seem right about the settlements to me).

I guess that's all I am going to say. Don't feel like wasting my breath. I suspect that the US under Obama will continue to support Israel in this.

Originally Posted by cbwm

I don't see it happening any time soon (in my lifetime).

I hope you're wrong about this.

Interesting. Gahndi got the British out of his country by getting his people to put down their weapons and use passive resistance. If the Palestinians could get their act together, remove Hamas from power, and take a page from Gahndi's book, they might get somewhere.

I tried to get a lot of hamas supporters to understand that - they sadly called me a jew. What can I do? Still... I agree with the wayfarer... both sides have a lot of reasons to just stop fighting and shake hands... I doubt that they will today, or tomorrow - but hey, 2009 is a long time, and 2010 - if they can manage it before the olympics in London, that'd still save a lot more children's lives than letting it go on for another 50 to 60 years!!

But who can truly pretend that the global suffering is just limited to a few people in war and death zones. No one I know who went to public schools and oxbridge and so on - has ANY freedom - they're ALL slaves, every last mother******* one of them. if i could i'd free them all, take the chains of money or pride from around their necks. but you know - they actually see me as a brain-frazzled waster. no really. they think i'm the bottom-end of society. (people whose greatest technical skill outside of 'sounding good' is using a spreadsheet! whilst i'm here with about 200 different disciplines mastered across about 50 different aspects of living, from technology, to cooking, to horticulture, to the less family friendly family friendly disciplines, like making sweet love, like chef or james brown... but a great sufi said - what? you are UPSET because you're better than people think you are? imagine if you were worse than they think you are - surely that's the only reason to get upset?)

This is how ill-informed the ratrace keeps people. Luckily there's always a way, a path, a good person can follow. No matter where the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune come from, you can end them by just keeping on moving. And in case you're wondering, I HAVE kept on moving - moved on, you might say. Nuff sed. And if i die young fighting for peace, as i've always imagined i might (alas, i may have too much balls for my own good) that sniper bullet catching me in the back of the neck... well, like the u2 lyric in my sig says - all my friends, the ones i love, who don't have the time for me when i'm alive - when i'm dead and gone, another corrie, another gandhi (i wrote a book called An American Gandhi - about rachel corrie's sacrifice in gaza) i swear, all of them, every last one, will find me in them, will find the fighter, the activist, the hero that i am, born again inside THEM, so when i die - 100s of versions of me will follow me into the battlefield. that's why, plus being bereft, typically of love and given only money instead, that's why i fear no sniper, no mercenary and no terrorist - i'll walk where the gandhis walk - all the way to death if i have to, because it wouldn't be death, it would be birth.

time for my toast now, then i'm finally going for that walk. a man's gotta stretch his legs, or he'll become a fat git.

You should go out and buy yourself something really nice. It would make you feel better.

It probably would! Then again, buying myself a future of wealth is definitely making me feel better. I'm literally getting high off putting every last penny I have into my business right now. I think that's how it'll be for some time - although once I've done it enough, I suppose I could buy myself a new apple macintosh or something - that'd make life good again.

Originally Posted by witnesstheday

I suppose I could buy myself a new apple macintosh or something - that'd make life good again.

They say if it is something you need or can really use, its not really a gift. A good gift is something you wouldn't normally spend the money on. How bout a nice gold plated toilet seat?

That trip to the caribbean then - last time I had a holiday was when I was on someone else's dosh - about 12 to 15 years ago!!!

maybe paris - it's a rapid train ride from London - and there's a lot of beautiful not-very-religious arab lasses down in the bars by the gare du nord (and a fair few nice fit english lasses from realms like highgate, mixed in with em)... my kinda place.

Paris and girls, or a golden toilet seat... decisions decisions..... hmmmm the toilet seat?

I've decided what to get: the Parisian pleasures, even the toilet seat (by coincidence the toilet seat in my slum house is broken and needs replacing) can wait. I'm gonna keep my promise to my boss (me). I'm going to go to gaza (give it 3 months) and feed kids I love. THat will be the nicest thing I can give myself (and my world).

And as well as that this is what I shall do for Gaza as I have today walking through my home, the hood, through Clapham, Brixton, Camberwell (where 99.9% of people believe the Israelis should be attacked with bombs and planes by arab countries, taking out their army, police, government etc) - I shall whistle, hold my head up, keep on making money, spreading joy, and I will NEVER say die.

In a boxing match there's 2 kind of fighter - the one who lets it happen and the one who makes it happen.

I'm a maker.

But now I have my marching orders. I am giving my most powerful asset to Palestine RIGHT NOW - I am starting a boycott of Israel - I have already accosted half a dozen people of London and told them to join the boycott which will soon be in the press. Many agreed, one old man just ignored me and walked away rudely, although first he'd started a conversation with me - so really it was his hatred of a-rabs that made him suddenly turn his back.

I have that list of 1000 forums reaching 1 to 2 million people - I am going to use it to spread the word of the boycott. I will gather info, I will fight hard, i will put heart and soul, money and power, and I will remove the new south africa from existence. Jews are not my concern - i know a LOT of decent jews. Israel is my concern. It is an illegal hitlerian state and they have killed 350 women and children in the last FEW DAYS roughly, I gather. More facts and figures will come together in the documentation I now start to gather. I won't stop until 50 million people have started to boycott Israel and ANYONE WHO GIVES ISRAEL MONEY. Even tesco, if they do (I'll go check that now).

All you webbies... start here:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=boycott+israel

saving children isn't just MY job - it's yours too.

PS - during the ceasefire israel killed 48 palestinians and palestine killed NO ONE

it is israel who broke the ceasefire. who never even respected it.

don't argue politics with anyone who supports israel - put your energy into the boycott. use your sites, use new sites, do EVERYTHING.

HELP ME - and when i am the billionaire many of you understand I will be, I PROMISE I will reward you. I'll pay good money to those who stood up for children who were being bombed in their sleep.

I went and saw my little friend in the hood, the little boy who made me see what it is to respect human life - the little boy who luckily isn't in gaza, but he's in MY gaza, MY palestine - the hoods of south london, where the downtrodden have waited YEEEARS to see the crash that has happened to the mooks only 5 mins away by bus in the city. These people have a LOT of energy and WILL help me. So join my bandwagon now, because it's the ONLY way to fly.

PEACE for palestinians. SCREW israel. Don't give them a PENNY of your money, not a peso, not a yen. It is time to call in the HUMANITARIAN POLICE.

we killed apartheid in south africa. let's kill it in israel too now. come on my friends. are you all just soulless moneygrubbers or is a SINGLE one of you like me? don't answer. DO SOMETHING. I've already begun. And I won't stop.

Slam (that's the tardis door closing, behind me).

Until you can wish peace for both sides you aren't any better than those you claim to hate and fight against..

Originally Posted by Feydakin

Until you can wish peace for both sides you aren't any better than those you claim to hate and fight against..

That's a low-IQ comment steve. If you want me to call off the dogs of war, you need to get Israel to stop killing people. I do not want NON-peace for anyone. It is only me, out of the two of us, aiming for peace for 2 sides. You are happy to let palestinian babies be murdered. I am not. My method will NOT KILL A SINGLE ISRAELI - plus it will STOP THE DEATHS OF PALESTINIANS.

It is, in short, what doctor who calls "Brilliant'. And other people who speak english too. So give up trying to debate me. Join the boycott, or face the music! If YOU are sourcing from israel, believe me i'll be the force behind the 10s of 1000s who close EVEN YOU all the way down to submission, ready to stop sourcing from israel.

NO MORE MONEY FOR ISRAEL

i shall see to it, believe me.
i've chaired the oldest school debating society in europe, and i earned that right, i wasn't born to it (like the winchester boys such as that moron who leads the tory party) and i didn't buy it (like the many rich arabs you get around - who don't do a **** thing for gaza) and i didn't get it as a "promised gift from god" either! I used my gift, the gift of the gab, and i just took that debating society over all by myself.

montgomery of alamein planned his alamein campaign in the same room that i chaired many debates, and roused the mercenary goons that were my peers - i have a lot of power in terms of this boycott

i'd love to see you beg though. it won't change my mind. but go on anyway. i can print it as a pdf and save it to share with palestinian kids when i finally get the job done and i can show them my collection of all the tidbits i'm gathering during my battle.

beg, beg for israel. go on. because i will show 300 million + people how THEY can PERSONALLY help the lives of gazans and other palestinians! I will, and you KNOW what will happen after I have persisted for 2 whole years! so beg. because you alone can fight for israel. at this moment in time no one else who supports israel's murderous brutality even KNOWs what is about to happen!

but seriously. don't beg. you could offer me 50 high class hookers and a jungle of weed and I'd still tell you to keep it and let me serve my bosses, the children of palestine whom you are not unhappy about the deaths of. you don't care if they die. i do. there's no way we'll see eye to eye until israel is crushed and you see with your own eyes that my way is the way of civilized women and men!

but in brief: what kind of a maniac would say "i killed those babies because of that bad guy over there"???? anyone who said that in a court-room in britain would be jailed for the rest of their life.

Originally Posted by witnesstheday

but in brief: what kind of a maniac would say "i killed those babies because of that bad guy over there"???? anyone who said that in a court-room in britain would be jailed for the rest of their life.

You forgot to supply pictures of the maimed and killed "Babies" in this post, though god knows I've seen them in every last CNN broadcast about the Gaza conflict. I've done you the courtesy of supplying the photos you left off...



I also felt the need to show a few of the pictures CNN likes to leave out, though they are equally important.














(I was limited to 20 images, but believe me, there are MANY MANY more of this cr*p)

Why do I suspect Ghandi would be horrified. A man who hides behind his children in a fight doesnt even deserve the sympathy of his own friends. The fact Hamas is actively trying to market sympathy in the media goes a long way to making me pro-zionist, just because I hate being used and lied to.

My boycott will end Israeli deaths 100%, civilian and soldier.
Israel's actions have caused and still cause (constantly) Israeli deaths, civilian and soldier.

This song explains it very well (listen up)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gC4Z_ysG0HU