I think our government should put much more money into alternative fuels for cars like chevy ongoing all electric Volt vehical. Will a car like this end our dependency on foreign oil?

Why should the government pay for research and development of a commercial product??

What they should do is offer more tax breaks and incentives to companies and consumers who invest in alternative energy vehicles!

Originally Posted by Feydakin

Why should the government pay for research and development of a commercial product??

To create American products on par with foreign technology that the government can then collect taxes on. Beats bailing out a failing auto industry. I attend a public research university where a lot of the research eventually ends up in commercial products. Public universities don't get all of their money from the government by far, but some of it definitely goes into research and development. The government is tied to the economy which is tied to research and inovation.

That being said, what I think we need is policy preventing 10MPG SUVs from being produced when global warming is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. The technology exists, and its no secret that the oil companies won't benifit from Americans using less gas so its just a matter of taking the issue more seriously and ignoring the complaints of an industry that will without a doubt will die eventually.

You might want to check the temperate outside.. And the scientists that are now jumping off the GW bandwagon and back on the Global Cooling bandwagon..

The reason electric cars have never caught on here is because no one wants them.. Until gas prices hit $5/gal and stay there, no one will care..

Originally Posted by Feydakin

The reason electric cars have never caught on here is because no one wants them.. Until gas prices hit $5/gal and stay there, no one will care..

To quote a Bronx Tale... "Nobody cares, nobody cares". Or maybe better put, not many people care. I'd say the one caveat to your otherwise correct assessment is time frame. In a couple years, 5$/gallon gas or otherwise, some promising battery technologies will come to maturity giving PEVs a range much closer to that of conventional gas engines.

I think it was said in an earlier thread, but if electric vehicles become affordable to purchase, cheap to drive, and have all the features and safety of a normal car, people will buy them en masse, even if they use the blood of baby harp seals as a reserve fuel source.

Originally Posted by Feydakin

You might want to check the temperate outside.. And the scientists that are now jumping off the GW bandwagon and back on the Global Cooling bandwagon..

The reason electric cars have never caught on here is because no one wants them.. Until gas prices hit $5/gal and stay there, no one will care..

It only takes an average temperature change of a few degrees to trigger extinction of many species. So even if it doesn't feel like a particularly hot day here in california, over a period of time a minor change can have a significant impact on an ecosystem. The global cooling you refer to can actually be a result of global warming (google it). So its the same "bandwagon" just with different understanding.

Regardless of whether or not you think global warming is happening right now. Pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere can't be good.

Even if you choose to believe that climate change is exagerated or made up there is still a list of reasons why we need new energy sources.

Referring back to the origional topic, "Should the government invest in reasearching alternative fuel?" Clearly being self sufficient when it comes to our energy benfits the government. The economy will benifit from not pouring out money for gas to the middle east as well as exports of new technology (provided we arn't the last in line to develop this technology and the market isn't saturated).

Regarding the people not caring comment. Is that a justification for not caring yourself?

I think its much about politics not putting much effort on making a gas free car that is feasible to all. So far the hydrogen cars seem to be most promising to me; then again when everybody starts using them the dripping water on the roads may cause health hazard.

Gas prices are low now, but they will rise high again once the economy starts getting back on its feet.

Government should spend more money and resources making gas free cars so we won't have to spend time doing nasty politics for oil.

Why are so many people convinced that a warmer planet is a bad thing?? Are you sure?? And if cooler is better, how much cooler?? Do you have a magic temperature that is "ideal" forever??

As for gas prices.. I don't care.. I have all sorts of vehicles here, 7 of them actually.. From a gas sipping motorcycle that get 60+mog to my tricked out 65' Chevy pickup that gets right about 4mpg.. Less when I'm melting rubber.. I'm also building my own electric car.. I'm converting an 86 Fiero.. And I still don't care..

There is a company in California that has some great battery tech, makes a great sports car to go with it, and when they approach the gubment for help in funding the next phase, a small 4 door family version with a 120 mile range, and fast recharging NiCad batter packs that were relatively small and light, they were told to go away.. No one was interested.. Yet they are willing to give billions to failed automotive industry business plans.. And still, I really don't care..

Personally, my thoughts are more on Hydrogen, my husband built a hydrogen booster last summer for our truck, it went from 10 MPG to 22 MPG, so that's over a 100% increase in gas mileage. And the truck has never run better, definitely more power.

how much does it cost to generate the hydrogen that you are using and the equipment to do it.. Are those costs factored in to the value??

Originally Posted by Feydakin

how much does it cost to generate the hydrogen that you are using and the equipment to do it.. Are those costs factored in to the value??

I'm sure that the costs, whatever they me be, to produce the hydrogen are built into the sales price. I find it unlikely that those costs, when calculated into the cost per mile, are lower than those of a conventional gas vehicle. I also find it unlikely that the carbon footprint is lower when taking into account the carbon footprint required to create the hydrogen, though I'm not certain.

Personally, I like the farms that power themselves on the methane output from cow manure. Now that sounds like a net gain and a cost savings all in one. Given the amount of beef consumed in America, what about methane vehicles?

It doesnt really cost anything to make hydrogen as it is the most abundant chemical element in the universe, constituting roughly 75% of the universe's elemental mass.
Its produced from water by electrolysis.
And water covers 71% of the Earth's surface so weve got a bit of that too.
Hydrogen combined with oxygen, is water (H2O) So we'll pretty much never run out

On that note vehicles that are produced to run on this form of energy are starting to get better and better as are knowledge in this form of power increases.

Heck i was watching top gear the other night and they had one that went almost 100mph and would roll on for almost 275 miles without needing to refill. and more and more gas stations are including hydrogen pumps now.

We'll get there though soon enough and i believe petrol /diesel cars will soon become a thing of the past. its exciting

Yes, but electrolysis requires electrical current, which has to be produced by a generator or power plant. So again, the question becomes, does the power consumed to create, bottle, and deliver pure hydrogen cost less per mile than gas(I'm guessing no). Does it have a lower carbon foot print at the end of the day (If the electricity comes from Nuclear, or Hydro, it probably does).

Remeber this Urban Legend?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car

very very very interesting aha

It takes about a 1/2 a gallon of distilled water and 1 teaspoon of sodium hydroxide, which is housed in a 4" diameter, about 11" high APS piping, that is installed to the left of the radiator. Your battery also produces hydrogen whenever a current is running through it. You add more distilled water and a pinch of more sodium hydroxide as needed, but this doesn't burn off quickly. The semi truck drivers are using these boosters as this can be used with diesel fuel beside gasoline.

I will supply a link which is where most of the information came from as to how to build the booster or you can buy one.

http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/

Originally Posted by Giselle

It takes about a 1/2 a gallon of distilled water and 1 teaspoon of sodium hydroxide,
...

What does the sodium hydroxide cost? A 100% bump in fuel efficiency would have to make it pretty expensive to make it non-cost competitive with gasoline. Do you know what the carbon footprint is of production of sodium hydroxide?

Edit: Oops. Forgot to ask about the distilled water costs as well (its been a while since I bought some). Also wondering about the carbon footprint of water distillation.

The sodium hydroxide was about $2 a pound purchased in the local soap making supply store. Actually sodium hydroxide is drano, but they don't want you to purchase and use drano, they want you to use either sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide. We have both and one is as good as the other, except the sodium hydroxide was in powder form and the potassium hydroxide was in large crystal form. Now the distilled water I purchase at Wal-Mart is under a dollar per gallon.

I will supply a link, but using these hydrogen boosters decreases the carbon footprint by 67%. Now with Honda's all Hydrogen car I would assume we would be looking at 0% of carbon footprint. On the Honda's Hydrogen car my understanding one can only travel 60 miles and then needs to find a station to exchange hydrogen tanks, so improvements are needed. But this is a tremendous great start!

http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/hydroxygas.htm

Originally Posted by MofoDog

We'll get there though soon enough and i believe petrol /diesel cars will soon become a thing of the past. its exciting

Like MofoDog said this is very exciting Cbwm!

Thanks for the link.. We are looking at growing bio-diesel when we purchase our new land, but this could be a great short term quick hit to our F350

How much sodium hydroxide and water are consumed per mile/hour? What are the byproducts of the reaction?