To define God as other than a set of rules, is idol worship.
Regardless of your religion, Christian, Muslim or any other religion, have you ever wondered why people began personifying God?
Why did we start giving Him a name when the Bible begins by telling us that He is the word. Word meaning rules.
The reason to me seems clear.
Our first God was a man.
Who but man can give voice to the will/rules of God?
There is only man.
The word God should then never be personified. When we do, it becomes idol worship.
God should be considered a title only. Somewhat like king or law.
Regardless of your religion or lack of it, to tie yourself to any Word is also idol worship.
We all label ourselves according to the set of rules we follow be they Christian, Muslim, Democrat or Green.
Our political Gods = rules.
Our religious Gods = rules.
Our natural Gods = rules.
Seek God yes. When you find Him, raise the bar of excellence for both Him and man.
Whoever you are, you live by one or two or three of those sets of rules mentioned. More than likely, a combination of all of them.
In this, none of us have any choice.
My question is aimed primarily at literalist and fundamentals who believe that their WORD is the WORD of a personified God. In other words, to my mind, idol worshipers.
Do you agree and see that to lock yourself to any WORD, including a personified religious God, is idol worship?
Am I wrong in saying that our first God was a man and that our last God should be a man as well?

Regards
DL

P. S. For a bit of Biblical history and insight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvg2EZAEw5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L7cQ3BrD5U&feature=related

Our first God was a man.

Certainly not.
The first Homo Habilis [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_habilis ] god was probably the sun, or any animal that was powerful enough to inspire them fear.

Now, if you talk about the Homo Sapiens, or modern human [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens ], well, they are known to create a god for almost anything they didn't understood at the time.
It helped (and still does) the rulers to establish a set of rules for the society to be followed.
Any individual not following those rules would be regarded as being an outcast, and possibily expelled of the community, which could mean being left alone to face dangerous predators.

Do not forget that mono-theistic societies are pretty new, in term of the whole human race timeline.
The first known monotheistic religion known appeared around 1700 BC, and is named Zoroastrianism [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism ] near what is know today as Iran.

There where many gods, to be praised for many occasions in our history. Our specie was very prolific for that matter.
Which in itself is the first good reason to doubt of any religion ( religion as a society, not as a personal conviction ) as being a good thing.

From a viewpoint of Christian doctrine, Christians, and so I believe Muslims as well, are freed from the law. In the case of Christians, the first commandment is to love God. By doing so, people will naturally follow the law as an outward sign of inner peace with the Holy Spirit working within them. For Muslims the same should hold true, the main difference being that Muslims are supposed to surrender the self to Allah.

Now, as to how many of either religion actually subscribe to that in practice is very much open to debate.

But, as for evolution of religion, look to what Albert Einstein had to say in this article.

tim

Originally Posted by tripy

Certainly not.
The first Homo Habilis [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_habilis ] god was probably the sun, or any animal that was powerful enough to inspire them fear.

Now, if you talk about the Homo Sapiens, or modern human [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens ], well, they are known to create a god for almost anything they didn't understood at the time.
It helped (and still does) the rulers to establish a set of rules for the society to be followed.
Any individual not following those rules would be regarded as being an outcast, and possibily expelled of the community, which could mean being left alone to face dangerous predators.

Do not forget that mono-theistic societies are pretty new, in term of the whole human race timeline.
The first known monotheistic religion known appeared around 1700 BC, and is named Zoroastrianism [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism ] near what is know today as Iran.

There where many gods, to be praised for many occasions in our history. Our specie was very prolific for that matter.
Which in itself is the first good reason to doubt of any religion ( religion as a society, not as a personal conviction ) as being a good thing.

Be our first God sun or stone, it still took a man to speak for it. that is my point. It has always been man involved in speaking for it.
There has never been a God that was not named so by man.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by serandfae

From a viewpoint of Christian doctrine, Christians, and so I believe Muslims as well, are freed from the law. In the case of Christians, the first commandment is to love God. By doing so, people will naturally follow the law as an outward sign of inner peace with the Holy Spirit working within them. For Muslims the same should hold true, the main difference being that Muslims are supposed to surrender the self to Allah.

Now, as to how many of either religion actually subscribe to that in practice is very much open to debate.

But, as for evolution of religion, look to what Albert Einstein had to say in this article.

tim

Thanks for this.

Regards
DL

Thierry pretty much summed up it with factual information. Man is not a God, there are leaders and there are followers, the leaders are the ones who set up the rules for the group in any particular group such as religious, cultural, etc., whether they are the right rules or the wrong rules, all in the name of some God.

Personally, I don't belong to any Religious organizations nor do I read or study any Bibles, a lot of my friends belong to different Religious organizations, which is their choice. I tend to follow the scientific community with factual information.

Originally Posted by Giselle

Thierry pretty much summed up it with factual information. Man is not a God, there are leaders and there are followers, the leaders are the ones who set up the rules for the group in any particular group such as religious, cultural, etc., whether they are the right rules or the wrong rules, all in the name of some God.

Personally, I don't belong to any Religious organizations nor do I read or study any Bibles, a lot of my friends belong to different Religious organizations, which is their choice. I tend to follow the scientific community with factual information.

A wise path. As a Deist I am quite close to your thinking but have taken it further. No proof of course.

Biblically speaking though, we were banished from Eden for becoming as Gods, knowing good and evil.

This says we are Gods and Jesus reminds us of this with----have ye forgotten that ye are Gods.

Many think that God is here to enslave us.
Do it my way or burn forever.
He is not. He is here to empower.

As a parent, I am sure you want your children to meet or best whatever you are.
Our heavenly Father would want nothing less for His children.
That is the message and good news of scripture. Not slavery to Him.

You might note that I do not believe in the Bible as the word or even inspired words of it's imaginary God, but from a believers point of view, I do get it's true message.

Regards
DL

Which God is being discussed here? There are many to choose from

Originally Posted by blue-dreamer

Which God is being discussed here? There are many to choose from

Try line 2 of the O P.
It speaks to just about any God.

Regards
DL

Yes there are many Gods to choose from, they choose the one they are most comfortable with, and what's wrong with that? I realize some aren't able to choose because they are born into the Religion. If a person chooses a Religion with damnation attached, that's their right and the organization they feel comfortable with. My feeling is let people be who they want to be and not judge them for their choice.

I have neighbors, the husband is a Christian, the wife is an Atheist, they raised a beautiful healthy intelligent daughter. They are happily married, but they chose their own individual beliefs and that is their rights.

Originally Posted by Giselle

I realize some aren't able to choose because they are born into the Religion.

Shouldn't that be "indoctrinated from birth"?

Originally Posted by Giselle

Yes there are many Gods to choose from, they choose the one they are most comfortable with, and what's wrong with that? I realize some aren't able to choose because they are born into the Religion. If a person chooses a Religion with damnation attached, that's their right and the organization they feel comfortable with. My feeling is let people be who they want to be and not judge them for their choice.

I have neighbors, the husband is a Christian, the wife is an Atheist, they raised a beautiful healthy intelligent daughter. They are happily married, but they chose their own individual beliefs and that is their rights.

If you Google Jesus camp or killing African witches, I think you will return and adjust your statement of live and let live in terms of religion.
If you do not I will question your morals.

I fight what you will see and like to say that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

If you are a believer, you might also realize that all literalists and fundamentals hurt the rest of us religionists by making us laughing stock for non believers.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by blue-dreamer

Shouldn't that be "indoctrinated from birth"?

No. That is a whole other issue.

Google what I gave in the message above and see the difference.

Regards
DL

Shouldn't that be "indoctrinated from birth"?

Literally, yes.
But in our societies (again, western societies, as they are the only I know) you often have the possibility to opt-out of a religion without much consequence if you don't feel comfortable with it.

Now, there is the line about the "self" of a child, and the path his parents choose for him at the beginning of his life.
I'm an agnostic (basically, it's an atheist that won't fight the deists), my wife is christian, and I have no problems with my daughter going to church.

You have to know the subject to make an enlightened choice.
She will get to know what Christianism is, but when she asked me if I believed in angels, I didn't refrain to expose my opinion.
That I don't think that angels exists, but that many people do believe in them, and if they like to think there are, why not.
I don't have the answer to that question.
This caused some frictions with my wife, but as our daughter summed up with

Don't worry mom, dad don't believe in them, but I do. It's not a problem.

But back to the subject, when a child reach 11~12 years old, at least here, he goes through the "confirmation" ceremony, where he is given the choice to rejoin the christian church, or to leave it.
The social pressure don't make it a totally free choice, but it exists anyway.

Some religion, and I'm thinking about Islam here, where it practice is rigid don't give that much of a choice.
Do you think that a woman Iran could walk without being covered because she don't believe in the quran? Probably not...

Originally Posted by blue-dreamer

Shouldn't that be "indoctrinated from birth"?

You are absolutely right with your statement, I was just trying to be polite and not be too harsh. "Indoctrinated from birth," you definitely nailed it!

@Greatest I am, this is my fault for not clarifying myself, when you say live and let live this means to me as long as you are not trying to bring bodily harm to anyone who doesn't quite think they way you do. There is no tolerance on my end for any kind of behavior as I mentioned.

@Thierry, I can think of a couple of Religious organizations here in the US that aren't much of a free choice either if you decide to drop out of the organization, one hounds you to death and the other shuns you.

Basically Thierry summed it up again, if you want to believe in Angels, that's fine, if you don't believe in Angels that's fine too. This is my attitude toward people of different religious backgrounds, getting along peacefully, let them be who they are, each one of us has our own comfort zone, why try to change people. I will stress this point again, as long as they aren't bringing bodily harm to another individual.

Originally Posted by Giselle

I have neighbors, the husband is a Christian, the wife is an Atheist, they raised a beautiful healthy intelligent daughter. They are happily married, but they chose their own individual beliefs and that is their rights.

Another thought, I mentioned the neighbors in this quote, we have been friends for many years, I know what their beliefs are and they know what our beliefs, nobody is trying to change anyone's beliefs. We are still very much friends which certainly hasn't hindered our relationship, this is the point I am trying to make.

Originally Posted by Giselle

You are absolutely right with your statement, I was just trying to be polite and not be too harsh. "Indoctrinated from birth," you definitely nailed it!

@Greatest I am, this is my fault for not clarifying myself, when you say live and let live this means to me as long as you are not trying to bring bodily harm to anyone who doesn't quite think they way you do. There is no tolerance on my end for any kind of behavior as I mentioned.

@Thierry, I can think of a couple of Religious organizations here in the US that aren't much of a free choice either if you decide to drop out of the organization, one hounds you to death and the other shuns you.

Basically Thierry summed it up again, if you want to believe in Angels, that's fine, if you don't believe in Angels that's fine too. This is my attitude toward people of different religious backgrounds, getting along peacefully, let them be who they are, each one of us has our own comfort zone, why try to change people. I will stress this point again, as long as they aren't bringing bodily harm to another individual.

We are set levels. Mine is low tolerance to idiotic notions.
To me, to not correct adults and older children to the reality that imaginary Satans and angels and demons and water walkers and talking animals is shirking my duty to my fellow man and if you all Googled Jesus camps and killing African witches to see what I mean then you may not see it as I do.
belief in angels leads to the death of witch children as far as I am concerned.

For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing friends.
Do not be caught doing nothing.

Regards
DL

I can think of a couple of Religious organizations here in the US that aren't much of a free choice either if you decide to drop out of the organization, one hounds you to death and the other shuns you.

@giselle
There certainly are some here too, but I never have been confronted to them.
The part of the country I live in is very catholic. Other region around are mostly protestant, but the base of most of the religious people here is judeo-christianism.

Sure, there are many small congregations, but as I don't hear from them, I don't know what is their practices.

About those religions you talk about, I now remember now having read a story of a girl that ran away from a Mormon community to her uncle, or a brother who fled too; and the description of her life in that community that was very frightening. I sadly cannot find it again.

But I really think that horrors can and are being committed in any group of belief, in any type of society. That's just the way our primal mind work: take ascendant over more fragile being, and reach for your advantage.
It's what have driven us to the Homo Sapiens, it's written in our genes, in our cells. That's the way nature works, selection of the fittest.

@Greatest I am, not all Christians are involved with killing the witch children in Africa, this has to do with the Evangelists, another Christian organization.

But I really think that horrors can and are being committed in any group of belief, in any type of society. That's just the way our primal mind work: take ascendant over more fragile being, and reach for your advantage.
It's what have driven us to the Homo Sapiens, it's written in our genes, in our cells. That's the way nature works, selection of the fittest.

^ @Thierry, so very true, harsh, but oh so true, that's life, reality! You are well educated intellectually!

I feel it wouldn't be appropriate to mention these two Religious organizations publicly, but I have seen what went on firsthand not as a member to these organizations but as friends to members.

Unfortunately what you read about the Mormons is probably still going on, once awhile we will have a documentary on the news with stories such as what you have read. I can't say for sure but this state is very tight with rules/laws, this would not be tolerated if this ever came to light here, but one really never knows what is going on in the back country.

Originally Posted by Greatest I am

Biblically speaking though, we were banished from Eden for becoming as Gods, knowing good and evil.

This says we are Gods and Jesus reminds us of this with----have ye forgotten that ye are Gods.

To take this a bit further, the Bible admonishes that to think of a sin (the word literally meaning a separation from God) is as bad as the act. So every sin really is original sin: That is, not taking from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but turning our backs on God to begin with, without which the former would not have happened.

But, now, if we're supposedly created in God's image (which I take to mean spirit), Christ taught too that with just enough faith, if we commanded a mountain to move, it would. So, if we tiny little creatures really are that powerful, we should watch our thoughts.

Christ warned against the fundamentalists, witch killers, and the like, then known as the Pharisees, Sadduces, and stone-throwers. To the former, he said to let them have their kingdom, which was here alone. To the latter, he said those without sin only should throw the first stone. Pity though it is, there are fundamentalists in every philosophy and religion, even atheism, who will lump every truly faithful soul in with the "fundies" of his particular worldview. So what? Live your life, and don't stand for evil when there's something you can do about it. Your life, after all, is your true testimony of belief, whether you think it is or not.

But, back to your original point, whether we choose to realize it or not, we are all connected to this sphere and one another. Anyone, regardless of faith, who acts otherwise is an idol worshipper. Even those who put the idea of God above the connection with it fall into this category.

tim