SEO Tycoon

**peterko** · 09-27-2007, 12:21 PM

Hi everyone,

Really need for your professional advice about redirects which I use on my site.

I have many different affiliate links on my site www.supremedeal.com.
Recently I found some tool which recognize bad neighborhood of the site. That tool consider all my affiliate links as bad neighborhood because all of them are 302 redirects. Those links look something like that "http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/click?id=CAcErp0wxzQ&off...." (I also have other affiliate programs beside linksynergy, which doen't make any difference in terms of redirects). As far as I know, Google doesn't like such redirects. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I've read somewhere, 301 redirect is much friendly to Google than the other tipes of redirects. Is it correct?

If that I'm correct, then I can easy transfer all those affiliate links into 301 redirect, naming hyperlinks with my major keywords. Now I have a question, will it help me to avoid bad Google actions if I will use 301 redirect instead of 302 or other redirects? Another words, is 301 redirect free of Google's punishment?

I've also heard somewhere (may be even on this forum, don't remember) there are some special web services that can provide such redirect procedures (they even call them "clean redirect"), for example alexa redirects, etc. I'm not sure how clean they are, but I can do 301 redirect even by myself on my dedicated web server through the Internet Service Manager.

Please, let me know your idea. Your help is being very appreciated.

Have a great day,
Peter

**Learning Newbie** · 09-27-2007, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterko

I've read somewhere, 301 redirect is much friendly to Google than the other tipes of redirects. Is it correct?

Yes. When you use it legitimately. Something moves, it's like going to the Post Office and doing a change of address form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterko

If that I'm correct, then I can easy transfer all those affiliate links into 301 redirect, naming hyperlinks with my major keywords. Now I have a question, will it help me to avoid bad Google actions if I will use 301 redirect instead of 302 or other redirects? Another words, is 301 redirect free of Google's punishment?

No. Google isn't stupid. There's no easy way to rank or avoid punishment - the only way to help your site is to develop it into something people like using and are proud to recommend.

**peterko** · 09-27-2007, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

There's no easy way to rank or avoid punishment - the only way to help your site is to develop it into something people like using and are proud to recommend.

OK, that makes a sense what you say.

Talking about what people like using, customers really don't care if you use redirect or not. It seems to me, people like to read valuable information and click the link which will bring them to the relevant web page. They shouldn't worry about technology of redirection or something like that. Am I correct?

On the other hand, if you have to use affiliate programs anyway, then you automatically get to the bad neighbourhood with your links, even if you use them on your sub pages (that is probably your suggestion). So, where is solution, not to use affiliate links? How to make affiliate links more friendly? Please, advise.

Have a great day,
Peter

**chrishirst** · 09-28-2007, 06:29 PM

First off, ignore the stupid "tool" that tells you your site is a "bad neighbourhood" just because it has affiliate links.
What a load of UTTER GARBAGE.

You seem to have the wrong end of the stick with the redirects. I'll read the problem fully and come up with an answer.
It's heading for the wrong side of midnight here and I've been at it since 7am so the brain is getting a little fried.

**Monkey Do** · 09-28-2007, 06:37 PM

My simplistic understanding (and I may be way wide of the mark) is that if you use a 301 permanent redirect then you are stating that the content has moved to another location containing the same content and therefore *shouldn't* be penalised.

If you redirect to a page that contains different content to that in the search engines index then technically it's a new set of content you are pointing to and quite rightly the search engine should treat it as such.

**peterko** · 09-28-2007, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkey Do

My simplistic understanding (and I may be way wide of the mark) is that if you use a 301 permanent redirect then you are stating that the content has moved to another location containing the same content and therefore *shouldn't* be penalised.

If you redirect to a page that contains different content to that in the search engines index then technically it's a new set of content you are pointing to and quite rightly the search engine should treat it as such.

The situation is not exactly as you say it.
Actually, it goes like this:
I have my site which provide some content for example for "supreme clothing". Next to the some description I put link to affiliate site that I'm participating. As you probably know, most affiliated links by themselves have URLs made of some "abracadabra" words and characters. Some web tools say, that such kind of links are being considered as bad neighborhood, and my site could be punished by Google because I use such links.

Then, I was trying to find solution how to make those links more friendly to Google. Anyway, originally all of them are treated as 302 redirects, and I know it's not friendly. On the other hand, I know 301 redirect is friendly. I could easily change those affiliate links to 301 redirect. Now the question is, will it help me to avoid punishment from Google and other SEs. I really have to participate in those affiliate programs.

Please, let me know what do you think about it. Thank you in advance.

Have a great day,
Peter

**colbyt** · 08:43 PM

Like Chris, I will say it is late for me.

I think you have a complete mis-understanding about links. What it sounds like to me is that you have outbound links on some of your pages.

Redirects are a whole nuther critter. An example. You have a page named page.html. You change to php. Then you redirect page.html to page.php. You can make that permanent (301) or temporary (302).

A second example. You have content on site1 and the page name is page.html. You start a new site and move the content to that site (site2). Your redirect would take the form of site1/page.html has been moved to site2/page.html. This redirect should always be permanet (301).

Outbound links on a page are just that; outbound links. They may include a referrer attribute. They are NOT redirects.

Now if you are using a scripted solution to hide the fact that your outbound links are referrer links, that is a whole different topic and I will let someone else address that one.

**peterko** · 09-29-2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colbyt

Outbound links on a page are just that; outbound links. They may include a referrer attribute. They are NOT redirects.

Now if you are using a scripted solution to hide the fact that your outbound links are referrer links, that is a whole different topic and I will let someone else address that one.

Thank you Colbyt for your reply.

Once again, the issue is the following (I'm trying to explain it as clear as I can):
There are links from affiliated programs on my site looking, for example, something like that "http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/click?id=CAcErp0wxzQ&off...." which are originally 302 redirects. Those links redirect to well respected sites after visitor click on them. I've heard Google doen't like such links and 302 redirects in particular. That's why I thought, in order to resolve such problems, may be it's a good idea to create virtual directorues on my IIS and apply more friendly permanent 301 redirect to those affiliate links, naming them something like 'http://www.mydomain.com/brand-name-affiliatee ' then use and option "Redirect to:" pointing it to affiliate URL that I want to be hidden.
In this case I will be using more friendly 301 redirect instead of 302, and at the same time reaching the same destination page of affiliate website as it was originally.

I understand, this is too long and might be useless procedure, but I really don't know how to deal with affiliate links that always considered by Google as bad neighborhood.

Please don't laugh if you think I do something stupid.
Your professianal help is really appreciated. Thanks everybody in advance.

Have a great day,
Peter

**vangogh** · 09-29-2007, 10:34 PM

Don't worry Peter I'm not laughing. If I'm understanding right I think you might have a few misconceptions and hopefully I can help clear them up. A lot of what I'm about to say has already been said in this post.

First an affiliate link doesn't automatically lead to a bad neighborhood. Amazon has an affiliate program. Amazon is not in a bad neighborhood. You might use redirection on an affiliate link to hide from people mousing over that the link is an affiliate link and you might use redirection so search engines don't know either.

Here's an article on affiliate jump pages explaining the whys and hows of creating a separate page to hold your affiliate links.

With the 301 and 302 redirects:

A 301 redirect tells a search engine the redirect is permanent. That is if you redirect page A to page B with a 301 you're telling search engines that anything they know about page A should now be transferred to page B. Any links pointing to page A should now be considered as pointing to page B. Page A is no more and it's new location is page B.

A 302 says this redirect is only temporary. For the moment page A is redirecting to page B, but it will soon stop. Please don't consider everything you know about page A to now be about page B. Page A will be back.

**peterko** · 09-30-2007, 11:21 AM

Thanks a lot Vangogh for you very professional reply.
I'm not really sure, but it seams to me it cleared out some misconceptions I had.
Can I ask you a few questions to make sure I'm on the right track?

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

First an affiliate link doesn't automatically lead to a bad neighborhood. Amazon has an affiliate program. Amazon is not in a bad neighborhood.

Now I understand, not every affiliate link associated with bad neighborhood.
Do you happen to know if any tools around so I could use them to figure it out which site is good or bad neighborhood?

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

Here's an article on affiliate jump pages explaining the whys and hows of creating a separate page to hold your affiliate links.

If I understood correctly what the article says, I should make some physical jump page which will redirect the affiliate link located on that page to the target destination. And that redirect will be considered as clean.

But what's gonna happen if instead of creating physical jump page I create virtual directory on my IIS with a name containing my targeting keywords (like 'http://www.supremedeal.com/brand-clothing...') and then use an option "Redirect to:" pointing it to affiliate URL that I want to be hidden on my site?
How Google and other search engines will consider such permanent 301 redirect? That would not be physical but virtual, would it be any difference for SEs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

With the 301 and 302 redirects:

A 301 redirect tells a search engine the redirect is permanent. That is if you redirect page A to page B with a 301 you're telling search engines that anything they know about page A should now be transferred to page B. Any links pointing to page A should now be considered as pointing to page B. Page A is no more and it's new location is page B.

A 302 says this redirect is only temporary. For the moment page A is redirecting to page B, but it will soon stop. Please don't consider everything you know about page A to now be about page B. Page A will be back.

Yes, I understand it. But If I create my virtual directory instead of physical webpage, would it still be assumed that the "links pointing to page A should now be considered as pointing to page B"? In my case page A is not physical but virtual, is there any differece?

It looks like I have full of mess, but I'm really confused with it. Probably because of the lack of appropriate knowledge.

Once again, thanks everyone for your replies. If you are not tired of my stupid questions, please post your suggestions.

Have a great day,
Peter

**vangogh** · 09-30-2007, 01:57 PM

There really isn't any tool that will tell you what is or isn't a bad neighborhood. It's more a common sense thing. If a site is trying to manipulate search engines don't link to them. Chances are if you choose affiliate programs well you have nothing to worry about.

I don't think it would be any different to search engines if you use a virtual directory instead of a jump page. I think they'll be more concerned with the redirect being a 301. I'm not 100% sure about this, but that's what I'm thinking.

I'm trying to think of any possible differences, but I can't come up with one. Maybe someone else has seen a difference, but I would think the 301 or 302 would be treated the same either way.

**peterko** · 10-01-2007, 10:53 AM

Thanks Vangogh for your help.

I wouldn't say I feel more secure after words, but at least I've heard professional opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

If a site is trying to manipulate search engines don't link to them. Chances are if you choose affiliate programs well you have nothing to worry about.

I'm not exactly sure what do you mean by "manipulate search engines". Can redirect by itself be considered as manipulating the search engines, or your are saying about much worse technologies? That's my personal feeling, but it seams to me Google in particular doesn't like redirects (i'm not sure about 301). Once again IMO, correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

I don't think it would be any different to search engines if you use a virtual directory instead of a jump page. I think they'll be more concerned with the redirect being a 301. I'm not 100% sure about this, but that's what I'm thinking.

I'm trying to think of any possible differences, but I can't come up with one. Maybe someone else has seen a difference, but I would think the 301 or 302 would be treated the same either way.

Talking about positive differences, I think using targeting keywords in the name of virtual directory could be that positive difference. Don't you think so?
Once again, your help is greatly appreciated and I respect your opinion.

If anyone else might give another suggestions, that would great!

Have a wonderful day,
Peter

**vangogh** · 10-01-2007, 08:05 PM

Google doesn't have any problems with redirects. I'm not sure where you picked that up. A redirect is neither good nor bad. Both 301s and 302s are fine depending on the situation. Some call for a 301 and others a 302.

What I meant by manipulation is sites that are doing things only for the purpose of trying to improve how pages on the site rank. Think of things like using invisible text on your site. There are probably some gray issues, but redirects are not among them.

I'm trying to think how a search engine would or wouldn't see a virtual directory. I doubt using keywords or not using them would have much effect either way. However ask yourself how important it would be to have that jump page show in search results. Unless someone sees the link that takes them there it's pretty useless for them to get there.

Not every page needs to or should rank.

**Onat** · 10-01-2007, 10:38 PM

Using 301 redirections helps to redirect the site into one from using www to non-www as different in terms of robot perspective and the weight or benefits will combined as one. ex. link popularity...

**peterko** · 10-02-2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

I'm trying to think how a search engine would or wouldn't see a virtual directory. I doubt using keywords or not using them would have much effect either way.

Thanks a lot, Vangogh. Your replies are very helpful, as usually

What I mean by "using keywords within link name" is the following:
Everyone knows hyperlinks on the site are extremely important for optimization purposes. And as far as I know, it really matters how we name our hyperlinks. If we apply keywords within URL, that raise the value of those keywords from the SEs point of view. Since I'm planning to create virtual directories linking to affiliate destinations, it seams to me it make a sense to name those hyperlinks with my targeting keywords. That can potentially increase site ranking, because the more hyperlinks with keywords is the better. Correct me if I am wrong. But I am not really sure how many such virtual directories I can place on my site, if there is a limit. And here is another concern, how search engines will consider the big number of keywords within hyperlinks (I mean over stuffing, if it is).

I would very appreciate professional opinions.

Have a great day,
Peter

**vangogh** · 10-03-2007, 01:01 AM

Peter I agree that using keywords in the anchor text of links is beneficial. It's mostly beneficial for the page you're linking to and not the page where the the link appears.

I also think using keywords in the URL is beneficial.

If the links are pointing to the affiliate sites then using keywords in the anchor text is going to help the affiliates rank more than it will help you. I'd use text to get people to click instead of worrying about trying to use those links to help your page rank better.

I might be misunderstanding what you mean by virtual directories. Are you talking about the virtual directories you set up in Apache to tell Apache where different domains are located?

I don't think it will make much difference what you name those outside of what Apache requires.

If you're talking about directories in the sense of

domain.com/directory/sub-directory/your-page.html

then yes I would use keywords, but I would use them minimally in each directory.

Say you have a site about cell phones and say your domain was cellphone.com I might set up directories as in this URL

cellphone.com/palm/treo/750P.html

Each directory down the tree would get a little more specific. In this case the palm directory is probably superfluous since treos are the only phones they make. Instead maybe

cellphone.com/palm-treo/750p.html

and then you might have a page for every model of treo you offer. Then you would have directories at the same level as the palm-treo directory for nokia, samsung, etc

You wouldn't name directories buy-palm-treo or palm-treo-prices. Just leave it at the basic word

Your specific product pages have all those words in the URL so you'd be optimizing the page for 'palm treo 750p'

All your specific phone pages would link back to your main palm-treo page reinforcing the phrase 'palm treo'

**peterko** · 10-03-2007, 02:11 PM

Thanks a lot, Vangogh for your feedback

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

Peter I agree that using keywords in the anchor text of links is beneficial. It's mostly beneficial for the page you're linking to and not the page where the the link appears.

I also think using keywords in the URL is beneficial.

I thought using keywords in the anchor text of links and URL is beneficial mostly for the page where the link appears. At least, that what SEO tools show (lets take for example Bruceclay tools). It shows certain criteria of optimization, and I see among them the following: "usnig keywords within hyperlinks", "using keywords within anchor text", etc. Those criteria are applicable to my page where the link appears, but not the page I'm linking to. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

If the links are pointing to the affiliate sites then using keywords in the anchor text is going to help the affiliates rank more than it will help you. I'd use text to get people to click instead of worrying about trying to use those links to help your page rank better.

If my statemant above is correct, then the links are pointing to the affiliate sites with my keywords first will help my site ranking than affiliate site, because they help in my optimization. If I'm wrong, then I guess your statement in the "Quote" is right.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Have a great day

**Learning Newbie** · 10-03-2007, 03:33 PM

Seach for "click here" in Google, then try to find the words on the page that comes up #1. You won't be able to. It's #1 because links point to it with that text. Those pages aren't #1.

Keywords in a link's text will of course show up on the to and from page, because on the from page it's readable text. But the effect is 100x stronger on the page the link points to.

**peterko** · 10-03-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Seach for "click here" in Google, then try to find the words on the page that comes up #1. You won't be able to. It's #1 because links point to it with that text. Those pages aren't #1.

Keywords in a link's text will of course show up on the to and from page, because on the from page it's readable text. But the effect is 100x stronger on the page the link points to.

Thanks for reply, John

I checked, you're right. Some of the #1 pages in Google's search by "click here" don't have those words within content, and some of them do.
That's really interesting, I didn't think about it before. That's why probably when we request someone to link to our sites we ask them to use our major keywords and phrases to match our content and keywords.

We've been talking about anchor text on the links (I understand, the anchor text on the links pointing to us is more important for our ranking than the anchor text of our links located on our sites and pointing to some other sites).

But how about using keywords within hyperlinks located on our sites. Is it the same picture, or opposite? I mean, are the hyperlinks named with our keywords and located on our sites, more important for our ranking than URL pointing to us (whatever they name those URLs)?
Hope I'm clear enough.

Have a great day,
Peter

**vangogh** · 10-03-2007, 06:00 PM

Peter you have it backwards. When people talk about anchor text being important it's mostly important for the site that gets linked to.

Let's say 100 pages link to one of yours with the text 'palm treo' it's reasonable for a search engine to assume your page is a good match for palm treos.

The page with the link on it probably does get some benefit from having the anchor text, but the page that is getting linked to gets more benefit so you would be helping the affiliates to rank for those words more than your own page.