SEO Tycoon

**chrishirst** · 09-28-2007, 02:23 PM

**Learning Newbie** · 09-28-2007, 02:54 PM

Quote:

His next question, completely reasonably, was "why did the designer use Flash when he knew I wanted SE visibility?".

I explained that web design and SEO are two different disciplines and sometimes a student of one discipline does not understand or know about all the implications for the other, nor should they be expected to. It transpired that he did not know that SEO and web design were different things, and he had assumed that the web designer should know and take into account these issues.

Let's play devils advocate. I brought my car in to get the air conditioner fixed, but they didn't put heaters in the seats. I went in to talk to my doctor about shedding a few pounds but he didn't know anything about medical marijuanna.

Just like a lawyer and an accountant are similar but not identical specialties, SEO and design have a lot of overlap, but I don't want someone to slack off on cross browser compatibility to learn more on how Google and MSN think of different ideas.

**gringo** · 09-28-2007, 03:29 PM

Quote:

is it the web designers responsibility to make sure they understand SEO themselves and explain the issues to their customer, or is it the customers responsibility to decide if SEO is an important factor and find out if their web designer knows about it?

I think it's up to the customer to clearly define his or her requirements. If they want search engine visibility, they must specify this before work starts.

**ADAM Web Design** · 09-28-2007, 05:16 PM

gringo: the customer clearly DID in this case.

I guess my problem with Rolf's whole take on it is this, and I'm going to take a page from John's playbook:

I noticed, on my 26th birthday, that my car was leaking transmission fluid. My car had one of those extended warranties on it, since I bought it from a dealer (off-lease low-miler) and in order to get at least some of it covered under warranty, I took it to a transmission repair shop that was an authorized labourer for that warranty.

It turned out that the reason for the transmission fluid leak had nothing whatsoever to do with the transmission; the radiator had sprung a leak (yet no rad fluid leaked out for some strange reason). So, the transmission repair shop replaced the radiator and a few hundred bucks later, off I went.

If the transmission repair shop didn't know how the rest of the car worked (or at least the rad), I'd still have a problem. Now, let's compare this to the example that the High Rankings guy posted.

Web design is the car. There are all sorts of parts that make up web design.

The SEO, in this case, is the transmission in that presumably, there is nothing wrong with it (not that we can tell for sure based on one side of a four-sided coin).

The Flash design was the leaky radiator, draining valuable SEO fluid along the way.

And like a car, there are many other parts to web design that often overlap: HTML, CSS, e-commerce, offline marketing, ASP, PHP, Javascript, graphics, etc. and so on. The key is to understand all of them, or to at least know enough about as many of them as possible to know when to use them and when not to.

**vilelink** · 09-28-2007, 11:24 PM

Gez, this is a lot tougher post to read. But nice way to put an example with Car.

**ForrestCroce** · 09-29-2007, 12:10 AM

It would be interesting to know how things will shake out in five years. Marketing and advertising will never go away, but if Google ever figures out how to truly rank pages on merit and how they apply to the user, seo itself will go away. Teaching a computer to understand pages contextually and compare quality is going to take a long time, though.

Smart clients will figure out the difference between graphic design, coding, and search and other types of marketing. They'll go to a firm or group of firms that have the skills they need. I don't think it matters as much whether that comes bundled together as all groups being clear up front. Which doesn't sound like the case here.

**Johan007** · 03:44 AM

Unfair to group Designers under the same hat. Now days the role of web designers are being split up into specialties within larger companies:

1) Graphically Designers and Illustrators (Photoshop)
2) Markup Designers (CSS, HTML with knowledge of W3C Accessibility)
3) Flash Developers (Can also be split into coders/designers)

Of the 3 above only Markup Designers need to know about SEO, however if they follow W3C web standards of Accessibility they have done at least 90% to 100% of on page SEO without even thinking about it. For more information about the relationship between Accessibility and SEO please read A List Apart article: High Accessibility Is Effective Search Engine Optimization.

**scorpionagency** · 09-29-2007, 04:13 AM

Ha, That's Classic......

In that situation I think its the designers fault... The Client clearly stated that he/she wanted SE visibility. The designer should have been honest with the client in the beginning & stated that they are not SEO Consultant's & maybe suggest outsourcing or sub-contracting that part of the project out to qualified individual.

I may be mistaken, but I do believe that ALL designers that have been around a while have a list of trusted sub-contractors & at least understand that SEO & Design are remotely different.

For any of use to assume that the designer had thought his flash design was SEF would be wrong, unless of course it was a new flash designer that was trying to build a portfolio & make a name. Either way, Misleading a client to believe you are meeting their specifications can not be overlooked.

Let's face it, the designer just wanted to make sale & nodded his head agreeably to whatever the client said in order to secure the project.

The sad part is that the Primary specifications were not met at all.

There are several times where its poor communication between the client & designer that leads to unfulfilled contracts, that doesn't seem to be the case here though.

In conclusion: It's the Designers fault (That's My Final Answer)

**gringo** · 09-29-2007, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

gringo: the customer clearly DID in this case.

You might be right, but I didn't read it like that.

Did the customer assume that the designer knew s/he wanted SEO visibility, or was it a clearly documented requirement? I was thinking it was the first one since most people I talk to (I know, limited experience) assume that once they get a web site published searchers will find it just because it's there.

But if it was made clear by the customer that SEO visibility was required then the designer wants setting fire to and shooting in the face with a bazooka.

**CSS4Life** · 09-29-2007, 11:14 AM

I'm not a web designer yet, but I'm seriously considering it as a career. I believe it's the web designer's duty to know at least basic SEO as Adam said - even if you are only working in a small area of an industry, you really need to have a basic understanding of the rest of the industry. The car example illustrated this best though

**ADAM Web Design** · 09-29-2007, 11:56 AM

I just wanted to put a positive spin on what was yet another in a long line of crappy birthdays. :P

**kline11** · 09-29-2007, 02:41 PM

Great post Chris.

I think that it needs to be stated by the client that they want the site designed to include SEO factors...but I don't believe it is "part of the web designers job". However, most "clients" know little to nothing about web design or SEO, so web designers should offer a price for "design" and a higher price for "design and SEO" and let the client choose.

**vangogh** · 09-29-2007, 04:54 PM

Interesting discussion Chris.

First let's all realize that we don't really know what happened in the specific case mentioned. Just because a client says after the fact that they brought up seo with their web designer doesn't mean they did. None of us know what was specifically discussed.

The issue we can talk about is the general one of does a web designer have to be an SEO. I'd say the answer is an unequivocal no. They should learn seo since it will give them a competitive advantage and allow them to offer more and better services to clients, but there's no reason why they have to.

Design and marketing are two separate things. It's true they often overlap, but they each require different skills.

Even within one industry people specialize. Think of all the different specialties doctors have. Would you go to a general practitioner to perform your next surgery? Would you see if an ear, nose, and throat doctor if you're having a problem with your feet?

One other thing to throw into the discussion is how much is the client willing to pay. I've had many clients come to me to design and build a site. When they do I listen to what they want and I tell them the options as best as I know them. I also tell them the price associated with each option.

If a client wants to rank well in search engines, but doesn't want to pay for keyword research or link building or content creation are you expected to provide any of those things?

Keeping with Adam's car metaphor let's say you walk into a dealer and you really want a Ferrari. You're willing to spend $2000. You tell the dealer how much you want a Ferrari. Who's fault is it later in the day when you're driving a used Plymouth? Is it the dealer's fault because you told him what you wanted and he didn't give it to you?

I think it's in the best interested of those creating websites to understand seo to some degree, at the very least how best to build a search engine friendly site. That doesn't mean they have to know how, just that it's in their best interest. Keep in mind not every site needs search engine traffic to be successful.

Even building a search friendly site is a specialty in itself. I agree with Johan above that if you develop a site to standards you've already made a good start when it comes to on page optimization. I disagree about the 90% though. I can build a site that will completely validate and still have an unfriendly site. However chances are if you do adhere to standards you've done good things for seo too.

Ideally a web design will know marketing, but there's no reason to expect they have to. As a business owner I look at every aspect of my business as my responsibility. I may not do my taxes, but I'm responsible for hiring an accountant.

If you want someone to build you a site you have to take some responsibility in who you hire. If you want seo and marketing then you need to ask the questions when you're in the hiring process. In the end though you make the decision over who you hire. Now if a designer tells you they can do seo for you and they can't then that designer is wrong. At the same time if you educate yourself even a little you can ask questions before hand to determine if that designer really did know what they were talking about.

There is a problem of course in the SEO industry in that anyone and everyone seems to think they can call themselves an SEO. Think of all the gurus, experts, and masters (henceforth known as gems) who come here and ask how to make their pages #1 in Google.

It's a sad truth, but in the end I still think (assuming all parties engages are honest) is that the responsibility resides in the client. I wouldn't have anyone perform surgery on me just because they say they can.

**seolman** · 09-29-2007, 09:24 PM

Very nice thread Chris, and interesting read.

One thing I learned long ago is: "quality is conformance to customer requirements".

Having said that: does the client always know what he/she requires? Sometimes yes and sometimes no. However, if the customer asks for a reed canoe to go down the river and fish, you don't build them the Bismarck just because you think it is a much better product.

You may explain to them why you think they need the Bismarck, but ultimately the client decides what their requirements are and the provider is bound to deliver same if it within the scope of their business/abilities.

In this case the reed canoe is a basic web site, the Bismarck is the unsinkable web site with an SEO friendly design.

In the case of "they promised me an SEO friendly web site", that's simply an error in judgement on the part of the buyer.

Where's the contract?
Where is the product definition?

Customer says they need X.
Provider agrees and offer proposal with some additional options.
Both parties agree on final product definition.
Everything is put down in writing and signed by both parties so there are no misunderstandings.
Project starts - contract is followed.

Later, if the customer claims you didn't provide something promised, or the provider says "I never promised that", the contract is King. It's no guarantee there will never be problems, but it certainly cuts down on 99% of them.

IMO it's still about 'Buyer Beware' but a provider of integrity will help the customer get the best value for their money.

**ADAM Web Design** · 09-30-2007, 01:16 AM

Actually, Steven, the correct term is SMEGMA: Search Master, Engine Guru, and Marketing Authority.

**Douglife** · 10-03-2007, 10:51 AM

Good read, probably more informative on this end though. I agree mostly with VanGogh, as I have dealt with these issues before.

Also, it seems to me that this whole "SEO" thing is fairly new, leaving lots of room for "so called experts" only to produce lack-luster information. I am excited and curious aswell how the next few years will develop. Thanks again fellas.

**vangogh** · 10-03-2007, 05:49 PM

Doug I think you're on to something with the SEO is fairly new thing. Most people don't really understand what it is and let's face it many SEOs will disagree about what it. For someone who isn't involved with it everyday it can be extremely confusing and it's hard to blame someone not in the industry for not knowing as much as we might like.

SEO seems like it's very easy to many because the basic principals are easy enough to grasp. The work itself is hard. It's easy to understand that you need links into your site, but knowing which links are better than others for your particular site and even more how to get those links is hard work.

But that ease in understanding some basic principals leads to many thinking they're qualified to offer services.

**peterko** · 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gringo

I think it's up to the customer to clearly define his or her requirements. If they want search engine visibility, they must specify this before work starts.

Yes, you're right, it's better to have work specification before it starts. But, it seams to me the person who involed in design of the web stuff should have at least small understanding of the major issues, like importance of the website content (TEXT). I think web designer should worn the customer, that flash pages don't have textual content and that's why the site might have trouble searching by SEs. IMO.

However, I also agree with Vangogh posting, it's easy to blame someone when we are all not perfect.

Have a great day,
Peter

**seolman** · 10-03-2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

But that ease in understanding some basic principals leads to many thinking they're qualified to offer services.

Other ways to put this:

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
"He knows just enough to be dangerous..."

**vangogh** · 07:00 PM

Peter I'm not disagreeing with you, but why do you think a web designer should know seo? I think it's good for them to know it, but why should they have to?

The design of your site is a part of seo, but seo isn't really a part of design. There are web designers who don't know the first thing about coding a site. They come from the graphic design world and create some really nice visuals. They're happy doing that and there's nothing wrong with that.

I think it's good for web designers to know seo because it gives them a competitive advantage. It's a way to separate yourself from other designers. I don't think seo is part of the job description though.

Dave you beat me to the post. Yep. There are those who know just enough to convince the people who know even less that they are experts. Then they come here and ask how it's done.