SEO Tycoon

**mgraphic** · 11:50 AM

It doesn't look like using CSS to position relevant text at the top of the un-rendered page will help with ranking. This was discussed at Search Engine Strategies conference in Chicago with optimization heavies; Shari Thurow of Grantastic Designs, Jim McFadyen of Critical Mass, Scott Orth of Selytics, Amit Kumar from Yahoo and Dan Crow from Google. Here is what they said...

“CSS can also be used to hide text or abuse header tags which would then fall under the category of web spam. Some designers will use CSS to position content first in html thinking it helps with rankings (it doesn't). Finally the use of coordinates to hide text or stacking chunks of content on top of each other can be disadvantageous as engines can detect this as a spam technique.”

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Link: http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=3624222

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**chrishirst** · 12-21-2006, 01:39 PM

So, no surprise there then

**vangogh** · 12-21-2006, 05:05 PM

Do you know if anything for that presentation is online somewhere?

I've always been curious about this and always looking for more info about it.

**ADAM Web Design** · 12-21-2006, 06:35 PM

* cough * I don't like this finding at all.

Seriously, what I think most of them missed in the whole equation is that sites that are built in CSS tend to load faster, render more properly, and thereby gain more backlinks. So there is a benefit of sorts.

And there is a much greater benefit than just the SEO, which is what disturbs me about the remark...people may get scared off because of the SEO lack of perceived benefit.

**vangogh** · 12-21-2006, 08:28 PM

I knew we'd see you in here Adam. My understanding has usually been that search engines strip out all of the code from a page before deciding how relevant it is to a given query. If that's the case then it really doesn't matter how a page is coded for ranking purposes.

I agree with you that there are still many, many benefits to using css over tables and there can still be benefits to using css to position your content before other page elements. Maybe not ranking benefits, but usability, accessibility, and maintenance benefits.

**mgraphic** · 12-21-2006, 09:44 PM

My co-worker sent me this information this morning, I will have him give me the direct link tomorrow.

**ADAM Web Design** · 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

I knew we'd see you in here Adam. My understanding has usually been that search engines strip out all of the code from a page before deciding how relevant it is to a given query. If that's the case then it really doesn't matter how a page is coded for ranking purposes.

I agree with you that there are still many, many benefits to using css over tables and there can still be benefits to using css to position your content before other page elements. Maybe not ranking benefits, but usability, accessibility, and maintenance benefits.

No, ranking too. You've seen some of the crazy-assed stuff I rank for...including terms with the words "SEO" and "search engine" in them.

Seriously, there is some connection. If not direct, then indirect. And even IF there were no connection, there are enough other reasons to justify CSS coding. Again, I just hope that no one is turned off of the benefits because of this.

**vangogh** · 12-22-2006, 01:38 AM

I guess that's why I want to see some more info about this. I have no proof one way or the other, but I can see where having content first could improve things and I could also see where it wouldn't make a difference. I'm not really sold either way.

**mgraphic** · 12-22-2006, 11:49 AM

This sure is an interesting read: http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=3624222

The reason my co-worker sent this to me because we were thinking to rebuild the core html structure of our web store www.rugsale.com

**gringo** · 12-22-2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Seriously, what I think most of them missed in the whole equation is that sites that are built in CSS tend to load faster, render more properly, and thereby gain more backlinks.

I don't think that a css based site would necessarily collect more links than a table based one. When I link I link to content that I think is useful, whether or not it's nicely presented using a css tableless design. And I'm someone who does like to see tableless designs.

You're right about the page loading times being a bit of a turn off, but as a linker I would display the link and then let my page visitor make the decision on whether to wait for the page to load or not.

Anyway, good to see someone who supposedly knows (who was that?) saying that content first doesn't matter.

**ADAM Web Design** · 12-22-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

I don't think that a css based site would necessarily collect more links than a table based one. When I link I link to content that I think is useful, whether or not it's nicely presented using a css tableless design. And I'm someone who does like to see tableless designs.

Yeah, but you're thinking logically rather than emotional. Form > function a lot of the time.

And there are people out there that will consider code when linking...I know, because I've seen older sites I've built get rejected for the same reason.

**gringo** · 12-22-2006, 03:21 PM

Really? I'm surprised. I didn't think that anyone but a rampant css puritan would refuse to link to a page simply because it used tables for layout. Every day is a school day

Don't get me wrong, I prefer not to use tables myself, but I didn't think tableless designs would have that much pulling power.

**ADAM Web Design** · 12-22-2006, 03:23 PM

They're starting to. Never underestimate the power of design geeks.

**gringo** · 12-22-2006, 03:28 PM

Ha ha. Nice SEFL site by the way. But you do realise it breaks in IE7?

Just kidding.

**vangogh** · 12-22-2006, 04:07 PM

Thanks for the link mgraphic. Interesting article especially as I'm trying to learn more about Ajax at the moment.

gringo it's sad, but it's true that some will only link to you if you're code is perfectly up to their standards. It's stupid since it's the content we should be linking to. I will admit though if I was thinking of linking to an article and it was painfully slow to load I might just find another similar article. No matter what your content is there's a good chance there's more like it behind door number 2.