SEO Tycoon

**pkids** · 02-20-2007, 08:59 PM

I've got this site, http://www.getvaxed.org, which only has 7-8 pages or so. The content (by that I mean, what people see/read) is all in Flash. Each Flash SWF is embedded in an HTML page, but there's no text in the HTML part of the page.

I was putting meta site description and keywords into the page, and had a question about quantity and format, but while searching for that info, encounterd a bigger problem, which is that everyone is saying meta keywords don't matter much anymore and that the site is ranked etc. by the actual content on the pages. I thought about hiding some text in the HTML, but I read that the major search engines are wise to techniques such as that.

Is there a way around this? Is it still possible to insert text that's our content into the HTML but not have it visible to the viewer? Or do I need to just figure out a way to get text onto the HTML part of the pages?

Thanks so much. I'm an amateur designer working for a nonprofit -- any help is much appreciated.

Franji Mayes
PKIDs

**ForrestCroce** · 02-20-2007, 10:30 PM

It sounds like you've discovered some of the "rules" of SEO, and one of the problems with Flash.

Any text you put on your pages and then hide from your visitors, is bad. There's really no way around that ... you might be able to make it work in the short term, until the next time Google gets wiser. To the search engines, that looks deceitful, and it's been used in an unethical way so often, compared to pretty rarely in an honest way like you describe ... that it's just a no-no. Hidden text can mean getting banned completely from a search index.

On the other hand, while you're waiting for Google to figure out how to read and index swf files ( could be next week, could be five years ) you might be better off creating a second copy of each page, but using only html. From your Flash pages, you would have a link to the html ones for people who don't have Flash installed and for GoogleBot. On the html pages, you would link to the Flash version for people who wound up on the "wrong" page and do have Flash installed.

That would have it's pluses ( mainly that your content is indexed by the search engines ) and minuses ( mainly that incoming links will be split between the two versions of your page, but also that it's extra work ).

All of this only relates to search visibility, though; I would guess a nonprofit probably has plenty of other ways to attract visitors?

**Visio** · 02-20-2007, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkids

I've got this site, http://www.getvaxed.org, which only has 7-8 pages or so. The content (by that I mean, what people see/read) is all in Flash. Each Flash SWF is embedded in an HTML page, but there's no text in the HTML part of the page.

I was putting meta site description and keywords into the page, and had a question about quantity and format, but while searching for that info, encounterd a bigger problem, which is that everyone is saying meta keywords don't matter much anymore and that the site is ranked etc. by the actual content on the pages. I thought about hiding some text in the HTML, but I read that the major search engines are wise to techniques such as that.

Is there a way around this? Is it still possible to insert text that's our content into the HTML but not have it visible to the viewer? Or do I need to just figure out a way to get text onto the HTML part of the pages?

Thanks so much. I'm an amateur designer working for a nonprofit -- any help is much appreciated.

Franji Mayes
PKIDs

Google does read and index flash sites just not the same way as html sites. Hidden text is not only easily recognized by Google but is useless as well. Your right also that meta keywords are buried. Google ranks sites based on many things but the main factor is backlinks. If you got enough backlinks from related sites you can rank for any phrase you want to no matter what kind of site you have. Sure html is much easier IMO but it can be done still. However some people can't view flash anyways so how about creating a separate site(same site just separate pages) in html for google and those who can't view flash. This is a 2 birds with one stone scenario.

**ADAM Web Design** · 10:24 AM

Here we go with the "backlinks" theory again. Backlinks are the #1 factor. PR is the most important thing. Links are the universal SEO solvent. Get links to your site. Get 'em, get 'em, get 'em.

ENOUGH WITH THAT ALREADY. (Steve, Chris, Forrest, Learning Newbie, a l'il help here?)

There's nothing wrong with inbound links to your site, but to suggest that he can rank this site for anything based on "enough inbound links from related sites" is just asinine. Totally, completely, utterly asinine.

And even if...EVEN IF...that were true, then that still doesn't solve the deeper issue with this site.

pkids: I know you're an amateur designer, and I know that you probably tried pretty hard. It looks like you did. Your problem is that you made the mistake a lot of people make...you focused so hard on making it look pretty that you took away some key functionality, particularly on that opening flash page.

In particular, the navigation bar on the top right took me five minutes to find, and I'm y'know, kinda sorta little bit tech-savvy. If you want people to find the navigation and click on things, you need to label the nav buttons with text as well as images (moreso the text so that people can read it). You solved that later on in the site, but on the opening page it's an issue. The web guru-types refer to it as "mystery meat navigation" because you're never sure what you're gonna get.

It's not such an issue with the little Easter eggs in the TV screen, but to go deeper into the site it will be.

If you're looking to learn more about mystery meat navigation and other pitfalls to avoid, I highly recommend looking at Web Pages That Suck!. You can learn a lot about how to build a website from the fallacy of others.

Overall, too, it's just too busy and animated and loud and...wow, as in "I'm overwhelmed, turn everything off".

The one good piece of advice Visio gave you was to have an HTML alternative. Besides being easier to work with from an SEO point of view, a lot of users can't or won't view Flash. I'm personally in the group that will view it in the absence of an HTML alternative, but I prefer the latter.

The reason I bring these issues to your attention is because they solve both user and SEO issues simultaneously. There's no point in worrying about SEO to your site if it won't retain traffic, right?

**chrishirst** · 02-21-2007, 08:09 AM

How to SEO Flash, HR thread on the same subject

It really is time that the "get more backlinks" method was tempered with a little thought.
Yes, backlinks are important for all SEs and Yes you can rank your pages for some terms by having more and more backlinks. BUT it is a very hard route to take. North face of the Eiger kind of route
A site/page can easily rank above the competition simply by having some well chosen links using appropriate anchor text, Chair lift in the Alps route.

I know which one I prefer

**pkids** · 02-21-2007, 05:11 PM

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond -- I'll be sharing this with my director and hopefully we can get going in a better direction.

Thanks again for your time (and if anyone else wants to comment that's great as well -- I'll check back).

**Learning Newbie** · 02-21-2007, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

ENOUGH WITH THAT ALREADY. (Steve, Chris, Forrest, Learning Newbie, a l'il help here?)

I'm honored to be called on, and have done my part. Only, I put my agreement in a new thread, where people ( not the OP, but people who respond with "just get more backlinks" ) are more likely to read it.

**ForrestCroce** · 02-22-2007, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Here with go with the "backlinks" theory again. Backlinks are the #1 factor. PR is the most important thing. Links are the universal SEO solvent. Get links to your site. Get 'em, get 'em, get 'em.

Most websites don't have an offline counterpart, I would think. For every brick and mortar store, there must be five blogs with adsense. I think this is where the "need every single link I can get" mentality comes from. On the other hand, a charity has clients ( who all have families and friends ). Probably most of the people who find your site already know about you and are looking for more info, whereas the average webmaster is fishing for traffic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

There's nothing wrong with inbound links to your site, but to suggest that he can rank this site for anything based on "enough inbound links from related sites" is just asinine. Totally, completely, utterly asinine.

Well it definitely won't work if you get a million links from sites Google doesn't trust ... which seems like what the average "get more links" chant suggests.