SEO Tycoon

**Learning Newbie** · 03-20-2007, 02:37 PM

Well a project manager slash seo. I heard him talking to the president ( of the company, not Bush ) about an email he got that's jam packed with seo tips, and things he's going to do for the company to make us come up higher in the searches.

First he's gonna "run some benchmarks" and do a search in Google, Yahoo, and MSN to see where we are now. The guy loves benchmarks. Not information so much - I had to meet with him when he was hired and tell the guy everything I know about the projects here so he can work on this SharePoint nightmare. So the guy read me the first requirement from his job description, then gave me a blank look for a moment, and said "Well? Uh, true or false?" I explained that it was true right now, and causing a problem, so he needs to figure out how to make it false. This is the guy who'll be doing SEO for the company.

He was telling the president what he was going to do so we're "more out there" in the searches. Big things coming down the pipe. We're going to load up our meta keywords, and stuff our pages with all kinds of keywords. That's it. The company is thrilled at the brave new world this presents, but our expert doesn't know there is such a thing as "off page" optimization. Also, there was no discussion of what searches to bench mark, leaving me to assume it will be the company name. Not exactly competitive stuff. ( Or useful, I think the point of SEO is for people who don't know you exist to find you. )

I'm not really sure whether I should just laugh, or be offended. Honestly, these people think I'm a good programmer but an idiot. They grudgingly gave me my way, after about a week of arguing that we should obey Google's terms of service on a site we're building for a client. I've pointed out seo issues with other tasks they've given me, and how to get around them, but it's never been of any interest. I have to admit it kind of bothers me someone making twice my salary and not doing any actual work is like the wizard from Fantasia when I've been giving better advice all along.

Oh well. I guess it's funny as long as the guy doesn't bankrupt the company and stop my paychecks coming in. I kind of need those!

**bzimage** · 03-20-2007, 03:45 PM

That is funny, I would not like a guy who could not answer some simple questions like that.

**ADAM Web Design** · 03-20-2007, 11:19 PM

John, I can say that I've been where you are (although not from an SEO point of view). There's nothing worse than knowing something is wrong and watching corporate types convince each other it's right based on buzzwords and a whole bunch of rhetoric that no one has the "huevos" (see, I used your word!) to admit they don't understand because no one's actually saying anything.

Unfortunately, there is no solution. You're already wrong before you get a chance to explain yourself. The ONLY thing you can do is prep your resume and prepare to find work somewhere else. You'll never get anywhere in the position you're in, and you're persona non grata.

I don't mean to be harsh (for a change), but it's the position you're in. This is why the client I have that's like that is the client I deal with the least (and I only do it because there are friendships involved going back over 10 years).

**travelagent** · 03-21-2007, 01:03 AM

There's alot of "alleged" SEO's who can't answer our questions here either...

**ADAM Web Design** · 03-21-2007, 01:26 AM

Oh sure, dude, invite trouble into the house.

**anindianspice** · 04:53 PM

Nice Story.............I love it..........

I think every field has these stories attached to it.Some designers don't know HTML, Some fine actors do not know a word about acting, they haven't joined any acting classes.............

There are many great actors who do not ABC of theater,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and you start asking them some silly question related to performing arts...........they will blare you out..............

Saying "Hey dude i have five Super Hits and you are still asking me those silly questions."

I think before hiring SEO or Interviewing him..........there muss be a scrutiny regarding how many websites he has brought on top ..............in which company he has been working for...........His Education.............etc

One thing more always look out for keywords for which that SEO has brought websites on top........are they competitive enough to fight for...................

After that you should nail the deal..............it's commonsense....................no rocket science........

I agree there will be some silly guys but you have your HR team to search for that Diamond.

If you can't find that exquisite breed of SEO, then for GOD sake please don't blame the Industry for that..............There's a BIG loophole in your Hiring Process.

One thing more there are some pessimist people in the corporate world .........who keep raising their fingers like ...........he is a designers........their life is great jus copy a template and paste it into new website..........

They think that we are doing the toughest thing and other are juss time passing.............

That's not the right attitude............you can't raise fingers on a person who always seems to be free.........but at the end of months you check his worksheet..........Great he has won incentive for that extra work................

That's organized way of working things..........Some people finish their chores in a flash and some take a lot of time.....................Actually they waste a lot .........They don't manage their time appropriately..........

Addingly, you can't comment on any industry unless you know very well about the mechanics that runs it.

"It's juss like an irritated Fan, who says " what the hell are beatles doing, it's easy, it's not a Big deal.........i can also do it..........juss take a guitar and run your fingers over it..........i don't know why people love them.....they are doing nothing."

I think no website can survive on Internet without SEO or proper marketing techniques, unless you are Microsoft or have that Brand name...........

About Me

Here's a Professional..............who has successfully ranked a website for most competitive keyword in the web designing Industry............

Dear webby's,

It's Cricket World Cup...................

If you have any questions juss bowl them to me i will bat them nicely with my precise answers...................

<removed self promo>
Am not the one who scare away from competition................

Am the one who follows a well thought out SEO techniques that will benefit your website in long term..............

Eagerly waiting for your Questions

Your Own SEO Guide
viki4k@yahoo.com(Add me)
An Indian Spice

**ForrestCroce** · 03-21-2007, 03:58 AM

I would start updating your resume. Didn't you say they wanted you to scrape Google pages for one of their clients? It doesn't sound like these people will be around forever. They don't sound like the best place to work, either.

**anindianspice** · 03-21-2007, 04:55 AM

Thanks a lot for wallpapers ......

courtesy : http://forrestcroce.com/

Great website.....but there's no SEO work on this website.........

I know Mr. Forest must be very eager to increase traffic on his website.................and one of the easiest way of doing so is by attracting people from Search Engines..........

If Mr Forest can increase the content on homepage and make it content rich.....................then this website will attract a lot of hits..................

Apart from that the wallpaper website can submit articles to bring traffic...........plus link building...........

This will increase the web visibility of http://forrestcroce.com/

That's my advise.......

Best of Luck!

Sincere advise from Your Own Seo Guide
viki4k@yahoo.com(add me for chat)

**WebSavvy** · 03-21-2007, 06:47 AM

"Forrest" wasn't asking for any "help" with his site. Read the thread topic.

John, FWIW, I agree with what Adam and Forrest have said. It sounds like you're under-appreciated there. Stuffing the meta keywords tag isn't going to help the site at all, mainly because hardly any of the SEs even use the meta keywords tag to determine relevance in their weighting criteria.

Instead, this guy needs to focus on developing the content to zone in on keyword areas that the company wants the site to rank for. Offer meat with the potatoes and the SEs are happy. Serve them just potatoes and their response is; "We can get these same potatoes anywhere. Where's the BEEF?"

I'm not an SEO, but I know enough about it to probably qualify as one. I find SEO quite boring so my focus is on design and programming where there is at least a "challenge" for me.

**anindianspice** · 08:49 AM

But I think Forest need that advise..................

You can't stop people from giving advise...................

It's up to MR Forest whether he applies it or not..............

**WebSavvy** · 03-21-2007, 09:32 AM

I wasn't trying to stop you (or anyone) from giving people advice. I merely pointed out your lack of good manners as it is in quite poor taste to offer advice where none was sought. This type of behavior is seen as rude.

**bzimage** · 03-21-2007, 09:34 AM

This thread really was not asking for someone to do SEO for them. They already have a guy and the thread was about him not being very good

**solidghost** · 03-21-2007, 09:45 AM

There are always snake oil salesperson in every industry.
You won't believe what my supervisor was conned into purchasing....

**ADAM Web Design** · 03-21-2007, 10:32 AM

anindianspice: part of being an SEO is knowing how to read. Clearly, you don't know how to do that or you'd realize two very important things:

1) Not-So-Newbie is more than capable of performing any SEO work required by himself, and would probably do a better job of it than you would. Check some of his posts and the things that he thinks of...no rookie is going to know or say those things.

2) Neither he nor Forrest asked for any SEO advice. Both of them are capable of doing their own thing and doing it well.

As Deb quite rightly pointed out, you gave advice on a subject where there wasn't any advice being requested. You can give advice on the situation of a loser in a company if you want (although from the looks of it, it won't be very good) but giving advice on a tangentally related topic isn't the way to go.

**Darksat** · 03-21-2007, 01:16 PM

Meta Keywords are worth nothing, the company will figure it out when the new meta keywords fail to deliver any new traffic.

**blue-dreamer** · 03-21-2007, 03:44 PM

Learning Newbie - I too have been in a similar position (not web related) where someone was brought in to troubleshoot/improve dah dah dah - in my case they were university graduates with business degrees and all the other usual stuff. I knew my job inside out and I (and my peers) knew what worked and what didn't. We'd refined our system over the years and were in the top5 performing units in the UK (out of 80). Sure things can always be improved no matter how good they are but that was part of my role anyway and we showed improvements to our process 10 years on the trot.

So in come the grads, they spend weeks "researching" and eventually make a presentation to the top dogs on how they are going to make this "massive improvement". Now, as these guys have been sent in from the highest level what they say goes so we have little or no input, other than to assist them in implementing changes. All I could do was express my concerns to my boss (who agreed with me of course!) and tell him to expect a big overtime bill when it all failed (yippee!).

Various changes were planned for implementation, the union was up in arms, and the front line staff were worrying because they could see their performance related bonus payments going down the pan. Even all our line managers had their heads in their hands!

Along comes D-day Monday (disaster day), all the changes are in and it's a complete mess, there a gaps in the pipeline, work not getting done when it should be (this is a very time critical public service industry btw) and everything is falling behind schedule. End of day 1 and we're 40% down on perfomance - the customer service center can't keep up with the complaints and all the staff are totally demoralised.

We were told to allow a few days for "bedding in" of the new changes which wasn't unreasonable in itself, save for the dramatic drop in perfomance, usually we'd expect a few % drop initially for a major change but 40% was something else!

So by the start of day 3 not much has improved, the grads are running around like headless chickens and non-one was giving them any co-operation - "sort it out yourself" was the general feeling. The union was calling for a lightning strike because of the mess (and I didn't blame them either!) but that lunchtime we held a meeting to try and recover the situation. One hour later we took executive action and told everyone to revert to the original tried and tested system.

It took us nearly 7 days to recover from that ordeal and the grads were posted somewhere else where they couldn't do as much damage. What's worse the whole debacle made the local newspapers and our reputation took a massive hit.

Either be prepared to do lots of overtime or get your CV out, it sounds like you're heading for disaster!

**Learning Newbie** · 03-21-2007, 05:09 PM

First of all, I want to give a huge thanks to Blue-Dreamer, instead of just talkupation. I know in my head that plenty of people are nervously in my shoes, but reading such a detailed account really made me feel better about my own circumstances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebSavvy

Stuffing the meta keywords tag isn't going to help the site at all, mainly because hardly any of the SEs even use the meta keywords tag to determine relevance in their weighting criteria.

This is the thing that bothers me the most. When I see Adam go to work critiquing a web site, it reminds me what a newbie I really am, even if he says otherwise. Adam operates on the web with surgical precision. Next to him, I'm like the guy who's never used chop sticks before, struggling to eat a hotdog with two baseball bats.

And even I know this stuff won't work. It might have some effect on our search rankings, but not the type that's going to be positive. Hell, I remember someone pointing out a very good example: if you search for "click here" Adobe is the #1 result, even though "click here" is nowhere to be found on the page. And it's clear these people don't know the first thing about off-page optimization. ( Not that people should rely on links, but they should be aware of the concept! )

Question: Should I even try to explain this? I'm pretty inclined not to, and I have the feeling it would be a loosing battle, making me look all the more out of touch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebSavvy

It sounds like you're under-appreciated there.

I guess this begs some questions in another subject you said you're interested in, psychology. I definitely feel under appreciated, and keep getting assigned to work on things that are well outside my strengths. It's a learning experience, but it doesn't inspire. Is this a good-enough reason to pack one's bags?

**ADAM Web Design** · 03-21-2007, 05:46 PM

Dammit, John, I was gonna make fish and chips for dinner but now I want some street meat from the vendor 5 minutes away from me. I HATE YOU.

I'm not really sure if I operate with "surgical precision." I tend to to operate more with a machete and brute force. Might as well cut to the heart of the matter, right? Appreciate the sentiment, though; that's one of the most original and coolest things anyone's said about me.

As far as explaining the situation goes, I think you have to for two reasons:

1) If you don't, you're just as guilty for keeping your mouth shut as the SEOidiot is for being...well...an idiot.

2) If you do, you'll get a pretty good gauge of how respected you are within your organization. Good organizations at least listen, indicate that they've listened, and will generally at least be able to reach some sort of consensus that will placate, if not satisfy, all parties.

I don't always agree with the things my clients want to do or that they suggest, and I tell them outright if I don't; conversely, I make sure to let them know that I agree with them if I do. I always state the reason I feel the way I do about a situation, unless I agree with the client's logic; with my clients, that is a wide variance.

As far as a learning experience, that depends on what you're learning. From the sounds of it, it doesn't seem like you're learning anything you can take away with you and apply to another situation. If that's the case, and you're like me in that you thrive on finding out things, then you need to start getting your resume out and networking yourself to people who can figure out that you offer something beyond the norm and respect you for it.

You're smart enough by a longshot to be able to express your own opinions, and if the company you work for doesn't get it, then you're employed by the wrong people.

**WebSavvy** · 03-21-2007, 05:47 PM

John, if it were me, I'd be looking elsewhere. I'm an "inner-peace" kind of person. If what I'm doing doesn't inspire me, and I find no joy in, then in my opinion -- it isn't worth my having done it.

For example, I spent every day of the entire past year working on an update for my directory. I have very, very poor eyesight. I can't see anything further away than 2 inches. So, this update took me a while.

I cleared up all of the HTML errors and moved to XHTML 1.1
I also did away with the tables and went with a table-less layout controlled by CSS.

Then, I wanted to make sure the directory passed WAI-AAA which in and of itself was a major feat.

At one point I was asking myself, if it was really worth it. No one was really going to notice the difference because it was all backend stuff. The only thing anyone would notice a change in, is the layout and design.

Finally, after the last part of it went in, and I moved it live. I felt such a great relief in the sense that it was finally over, and I felt a lot of pride too because I now have a directory that persons with disabilities can use to do research.

In the end, I justify it this way -- I made a sacrifice of a year, spent all the holidays working, even Christmas. I worked when I was sick, and then times when I just didn't feel like it anymore, I still worked anyway. However, what makes it all worth it is, that people with disabilities can now use my directory whereas before it was next to impossible for them.

If anything is worth it, it's the fact that your own efforts have made someone else's life perhaps just a tad easier.

That's where I found the inspiration to keep going, and in the end, knew I this would bring me inner-peace.

If what you're doing is causing you to experience any sort of internal grief, whether it's emotional, spiritual, or mental, it's time to concentrate your efforts elsewhere.

I've read your blog, and you have a keen mind with a lot to offer any potential employer. If your current employer doesn't realize this, then he's an idiot.

**vangogh** · 03-22-2007, 12:38 AM

John things like this are the reason I'm now working for myself. I agree completely with Deb. It's about the inner peace.

I have a suggestion. Build your own site and optimize it. You know more than you think by the way. It's obvious when someone gets it and when they don't. The details will come in time, but you chose the right path from the start.

Anyway optimize your own site and after a time accidentally let out how well your site is doing. Then when it reaches your boss he'll come looking for you to optimize the company site. If you want on that day you can quit and let your boss know he can't afford your services anymore.