Suggestions and Feedback

**spyros** · 03-16-2008, 06:23 AM

With the rise of Social Media Marketing I think that this forums needs a separate section just about SMM. You might want to include it in SEO, but I think it can stand alone also. SMM is turning out to being a huge thing, especially in the States.

Hope you think this is interesting enough!

P.S. If there is a section like that allready, please point me to it 'cause I can't find it

Cheers!

**jamestl2** · 03-17-2008, 02:54 PM

I already made a proposal like this, but it was virtually decided that it was a bad idea, as the majority of the threads would probably contain garbage offers like "Stumble You, Stumble Me" or "Lets trade Digg" threads.
http://www.webmaster-talk.com/sugges...-yep-even.html

**ADAM Web Design** · 03-17-2008, 03:18 PM

Like I've said before, and like I'll say again...social media optimization/marketing is a garbage industry for the reasons James outlined (and many others).

The whole point of these sites was to share worthwhile resources organically...which was a great idea in principle, but in practice falls apart because of the vested-interest mentality of most so-called marketers, who only look at one side of the coin. I haven't yet met an "SMO" (and don't suspect I will anytime soon) that gets the whole picture.

This is a really, really bad idea and one that could easily lead to disaster.

**spyros** · 03-17-2008, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamestl2

I already made a proposal like this, but it was virtually decided that it was a bad idea, as the majority of the threads would probably contain garbage offers like "Stumble You, Stumble Me" or "Lets trade Digg" threads.
http://www.webmaster-talk.com/sugges...-yep-even.html

I read your posts and see what you mean...

**vangogh** · 03-17-2008, 06:21 PM

I think a specific forum on social media would actually be a good thing. Sorry I missed your original post James.

Quote:

I haven't yet met an "SMO" (and don't suspect I will anytime soon) that gets the whole picture.

Adam, wouldn't that be the exact reason to have a social media forum? So people can get the whole picture? I think too often on this forum social media marketing is seen as nothing, but Digg or Stumble exchanges. That's not at all what social media marketing is about. A forum with good discussions could go a long way toward helping people see the big picture.

**ADAM Web Design** · 03-17-2008, 06:55 PM

Again, sounds good in theory, falls apart in practice. SMO isn't a real industry. It's just a bunch of so-called marketers kissing each other's *****, and that's all the forum will become.

That, and real SMO is a simple concept that doesn't require its own forum: build a site users will like and market it properly, and the rest takes care of itself. All that would happen with an SMO forum is a whole forum full of RLE black noise.

**spyros** · 03-18-2008, 06:40 AM

Well in my opinion I think that SMM is something that can help the webmaster in general. I am sure that all webmaster try it on time or another and since this Forum is called Webmaster Talk I don't see how it can't be included as a section. All precautions can be taken to prevent mis-usage like not having the ability to post links until you reach a certain amount of posts, not being able to have a signature until you reach another certain amount of posts and so forth.

And Adam, how can you say that "...it falls apart in practice" since the forum admins haven't tried this yet? I would agree with you if this had happened in the past and all the things you described had occurred at one time or another.

I think that nobody can predict what will happen and I also think that you don't have to be so "passionate" when wanting to make a point. Some forum readers might think you are a bit rude. I understand that you want to protect the Forum, so do I, and every other member that has been around for a long time. As a mentioned above there are ways to protect it.

Thanks and I hope I am not upsetting you Adam. Really I have no such intention.

Kind Regards

**ADAM Web Design** · 03-18-2008, 11:41 AM

Because it falls apart in practice every time a discussion that even tangentally relates to the topic gets started, that's how I can say it. It's so obvious you can see it from Jupiter.

We have discussions about SEO and every other post is about "get backlinks from high PR social bookmarking sites" or "do Digg and Stumble exchange" or "social media sites are a great new way to network and meet customers" or whatever lie du jour is popular.

If you don't believe me, try a little experiment for yourself and see how it goes...without any prejudices whatsoever, explain the base concept of "social media marketing" as it is presently defined to someone who uses a site like Facebook or Myspace or Twits (yeah, I know how it's spelled) and see what it is that they say back to you. Most of them, if not all of them, would tell you they'd probably shut their account down or block the social media marketers because they think they're spammers.

The problem I have with it is that it gives both web design and Internet marketing in general a big black eye, but no one can see it because they're doing exactly what I said they're doing, which is looking at one side of the coin.

You don't upset me, Spyros. What upsets me is the idea of "social media marketing" in the first place. It's a garbage industry founded on garbage principles and will continue to be exactly that, and no forum whatsoever will change that.

**VirtuosiMedia** · 08:25 PM

To say it in a different way, perhaps, SMM usually isn't a win-win situation. Companies and sites are only seeking their own good, not the end user. When they contact the end user through an social media site, because they don't offer any value, they are viewed rightly as SSS (self-serving spam). In fact, I'd argue that no one wins with SMM, because even if it "works", it generates traffic only, not conversions. However, if the company or website would instead concentrate on value, they won't have a problem with marketing, because word-of-mouth advertising will spread their message organically. Maybe a better forum would be one that teaches and discusses how to create and offer real value and presenting it in a natural, easy, and compelling way.

**vangogh** · 03-18-2008, 09:03 PM

Adam I think you might be the one looking at only one side of the coin here. You're only seeing the spammy side of social media and assuming that's what it's all about. That's not at all what it's about.

As far as it falling apart in practice I disagree. Just because people have done that here in the past doesn't mean it's inevitable. If anything it means there's a need for more discussion so everyone can see social media marketing isn't all about trading diggs and stumbles.

None of this gives web design and internet marketing a black eye. A quality site still sits at the base of everything else, but it takes more than having a good site to be successful. You have to let people know it exists and social media is one way to do that. Sure there's a spammy side to it like there is with everything else, but that doesn't make the entire subject spam. An open discussion here could help people see the side of things that doesn't involve spamming.

**jamestl2** · 03-18-2008, 09:33 PM

Honestly, I don't envision many informative threads that *could* be created in this potential forum, there just doesn't seem like enough substance to me.

If anything, I'd say make it a subforum of Misc Int. Marketing, if to just test the idea out.

**ADAM Web Design** · 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtuosiMedia

To say it in a different way, perhaps, SMM usually isn't a win-win situation. Companies and sites are only seeking their own good, not the end user. When they contact the end user through an social media site, because they don't offer any value, they are viewed rightly as SSS (self-serving spam). In fact, I'd argue that no one wins with SMM, because even if it "works", it generates traffic only, not conversions. However, if the company or website would instead concentrate on value, they won't have a problem with marketing, because word-of-mouth advertising will spread their message organically. Maybe a better forum would be one that teaches and discusses how to create and offer real value and presenting it in a natural, easy, and compelling way.

This is freakin' brilliant. It's everything that I was saying summed up in one paragraph.

Come up with something called "Quality Content Creation Forum" and then you'll deal with the major issue.

Steven, this is the problem...there's only one side to the coin as such, as was originally presented. "Social media marketing", in its present state, is merely a conduit for spammers to try and sell their crappy wares. Real "social media optimization" and marketing is nothng more than quality content creation.

**jamestl2** · 06:22 PM

Ok you guys, the thread is about whether we should have a SMO forum.

I think we should come up with a list of pros and cons on having one, (feel free to add to it

)

Pros:

Educating people on Social Media Sites
Explaining to others that quality content is the foundation of SMO

Cons:

Tons of Potential Garbage Exchanging Threads
Lots of SSS

Whether those pros are enough for one though, I don't know

Quote:

To say it in a different way, perhaps, SMM usually isn't a win-win situation. Companies and sites are only seeking their own good, not the end user.

You could say the same thing about the SEO Forum, or RLE Forum, etc.

**mork29** · 03-20-2008, 09:31 AM

I think the cons of the SMO are the pros. I would love an entire section of the forum dedicated to the spammy stuff....
ie...
Link Exchange
SMO, SMM, etc..
Turn-key, E-book sales, etc...

All of that should be stuffed into one corner of the forum so that those of us interested in legit SEO techniques, and building sites with quality content don't have to waste our time looking at it....

Just my $.02

**CSS4Life** · 03-20-2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mork29

I think the cons of the SMO are the pros. I would love an entire section of the forum dedicated to the spammy stuff....
ie...
Link Exchange
SMO, SMM, etc..
Turn-key, E-book sales, etc...

All of that should be stuffed into one corner of the forum so that those of us interested in legit SEO techniques, and building sites with quality content don't have to waste our time looking at it....

Just my $.02

This Keith guy seems to speak a lot of sense! Dedicating a forum to SMO may not be such a bad thing as it could be a place to educate people. All threads that were only about "stumble me, me stumble you" (using that exact phrase

) could be moved to a subforum off the link exchange forum where they wouldn't bother the rest of us. Just as we've done with the link exchange forum, we could make sure that posts in the SMO subforum did not show up in the "new posts" area.

As a webmaster forum, it's almost inevitable that we will have to embrace social bookmarking and networking, and it's better to have a dedicated forum to it and a subforum somewhere, than letting people post in the wrong place because there isn't a dedicated forum.

I can see it's a controversial issue, but I think it has to be embraced if Webmaster-Talk is to continue to be a useful resource to new and old webmasters alike.

Dan

**jamestl2** · 03-20-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whym

All threads that were only about "stumble me, me stumble you" (using that exact phrase ) could be moved to a subforum off the link exchange forum where they wouldn't bother the rest of us. Just as we've done with the link exchange forum, we could make sure that posts in the SMO subforum did not show up in the "new posts" area.

Actually, I don't think they should be allowed anywhere at all, those offers break the different Social Networks' TOS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whym

As a webmaster forum, it's almost inevitable that we will have to embrace social bookmarking and networking, and it's better to have a dedicated forum to it and a subforum somewhere, than letting people post in the wrong place because there isn't a dedicated forum.

Well we do have misc. int. marketing, and a few threads there have been created about SMO (not many though, I might add). Like I said, I just don't think there's enough substance for this to become a stand-alone forum.

**jamestl2** · 04-07-2008, 03:29 PM

I'm guessing now we're just going to go with the Online Communities Forum:
http://www.webmaster-talk.com/online-communities/

I think this is a great way to have it, just combining the "forum" forum with the SMM forum.

**vangogh** · 02:50 PM

I still think a dedicated forum to social media could work. In fact this thread has convinced me that most people here have a very narrow view of social media.

Success with social media is not about traffic exchanges and I think it's a shame that it's all anyone here seems to associate with it.

It's about networking with other people in and out of your industry. The marketing aspects are about understanding the different communities at each site so you can craft content those people would more like enjoy. There are technical aspects such as how to set up your profile page so others will find it useful.

This may come as a shock to everyone, but forums are social media. Think about what you do here. You login in when you want and participate in the community. In doing so you get to meet other people, some of whom you like and some maybe not. You form friendships here and as a result your friends help in the promotion of your site by reading your blog and commenting on it. Maybe they link to you on occasion without you having to ask. You didn't spam them. They got to know you and because of knowing you checked out your site.

Sounds very social to me.

That's a lot how other social sites work. It's not about spammy exchanges for votes. It's about honest people connecting with each other and getting to know each other. Some people hang out on forums, other people hang out on Digg.

Here's an example of how it can work. A few months ago I decided to join Twitter. For a long time I thought the concept was dumb, but one day I decided to join and see what it was all about. Twitter is like a streaming IM conversation and you can choose who you want to listen to and when you want to join the conversation.

I followed some people and then started chatting with them. People ask questions about anything. I've helped people pick their new computer and troubleshoot browser problems. People post links to interesting content that I wouldn't have seen anywhere else. We have meaningful and meaningless conversations all the time. The end result is you get to know people better.

Through Twitter I was asked if I would write a guest post for another blog that brought me attention. That post has led to further contacts and further opportunities. Through Twitter a number of people who didn't know me before now do and have subscribed to my blog. I've also gotten closer to people I already knew, but didn't know that well.

I've answered questions for high profile bloggers and then found myself mentioned in a subsequent blog post along with a link. People test out ideas all the time for blog posts seeing if others would be interested in the topic and getting information to think about and write about.

Nothing about any of the above was asking other people for links or traffic exchanges or spammy in any way whatsoever. The people I happen to follow would sniff out that spam quickly and call you on it. We all just participated in an ongoing conversation the same as we're all doing here.

Other social sites and communities work differently. The way you connect with people is different. Each community has different interests. It's like one forum is about webmastering and another is about sailing.

If people are worried that the threads would inevitably turn to traffic exchanges here's a simple solution. We add to the forum rules that they aren't allowed and the mods will delete those threads.

And if you think the whole concept is spammy don't spend time in that forum. It's not as though you have to participate in every forum here. I'm not an ASP programmer and don't really want to be so I don't visit that part of the site. Is that so hard?

**jamestl2** · 04-07-2008, 10:25 PM

Wow Steve! Passionate Post there

If we do decide to add this forum also, then what will become of the Online Community one? Will it be dedicated to "just" forums then?

It kind of already sounded like SMM to me.

**vangogh** · 10:49 PM

I guess I just get tired of the one sided view of social media. I see people who don't participate assume they know what it's all about. I want people to see there's another side to it other than the traffic exchange stuff.

It's really just about participating in different communities the same as we do here.

I haven't had a chance to check out the Online Community forum so that might be enough. I think with the merger it's best to let everything settle down anyway before making any changes.

I thought of another simple social media example. I have a profile at MyBlogLog. I don't do much more than check the stats at that site since they provide a couple of things I don't get anywhere else, but I also sign in to get their cookie, which tracks where I go. Then as I read blogs through the day those that have the MyBlogLog widget installed or display the avatars in some way end up showing mine. Other people will see my avatar and it helps with extending the reach of my brand.

Nothing spammy. I just log into a site before surfing.

There are ways to market yourself through social media without being a spammer.