Suggestions and Feedback

**serandfae** · 06-22-2011, 03:30 PM

If freelancer's goal is for this forum to be taken seriously as a forum for online business, then it seriously needs to restructure, starting with moving "SEO" out of the

SEO & Internet Marketing Tycoon forum. Might also help to lose the "tycoon".

Anyone who knows anything about internet marketing knows SEO is a SUBSET of marketing. The other online business forums need to be given top billing, with SEO as a subset of SEM, and the extra SEO forum at the middle of the main page merged into it.

Perhaps you'd get fewer of the "seogurumaster" types and more inquiries for legitimate online business advice?

The way you structure a page really does affect what traffic you invite.

A hard look at the order of the main page forums would be in order too.

tim

**dWhite** · 06-22-2011, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serandfae

Perhaps you'd get fewer of the "seogurumaster" types and more inquiries for legitimate online business advice

I highly doubt that. The mere mention of "SEO" or "dofollow" seems to attract all the guru masters.

**serandfae** · 06-22-2011, 04:57 PM

A quote from General Discussions regarding the new banners:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shey

Those in authority just simply tweaked Tycoon Talk header to match what Freelancer.com is wearing since it is part of the Freelancer.com network

This gives some grave insight into the forum's administrative structure: Now that the forum has gone corporate, the admins have little more authority than the super-mods. This is a grave mistake, one you admins ought to be taking to the "higher-ups" in terms of money:

Why has the forum dropped in terms of real active membership? (REVENUE LOST)

Because the site is neither engaging its prospective target market nor the market it had as Webmaster-Talk. (REVENUE LOST)

If local administration has its finger on the pulse of what's going on, it needs broader local control of the site as a whole.

You may think I'm being a thorn in your side, but I'm hoping you guys will seriously bring these things up with your bosses before they manage to tank the whole forum, when it could be an asset.

Might we hear from the admins here we now seldom hear from, that is, other than Shey?

tim

**dWhite** · 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serandfae

You may think I'm being a thorn in your side, but I'm hoping you guys will seriously bring these things up with your bosses before they manage to tank the whole forum, when it could be an asset.

Might we hear from the admins here we now seldom hear from, that is, other than Shey?

They have already pounded the forum into the ground beyond repair, and I highly doubt the admins even care. I mean look at most of them, they don't interact with us...they don't do anything. They come on the forum for 2 minutes, make some changes to better Freelancer.com and then logout.

This is no longer a webmaster forum. It's a promote Freelancer.com and all the crap services at all costs venture.

Member registration is way down, member activity is on the brink of being non-existent. Spammers are on the rise again. You know what happens after this happens. The forum becomes overrun and the place turns into space festival galore.

Shey is left to deal with us, and having to hear all our complaints. I feel bad for her sometimes.

**vangogh** · 06-22-2011, 06:10 PM

I can't speak for ownership, but I'll try to address some of what's been said.

1. I have to agree with Daniel in regards to moving the seo forum. It's going to attract the "gurus" no matter where it's located. I think some of that's been addressed by hiding profiles except when logged in, and some addons to vBulletin that are helping fight auto spam. Spam is down. That's the main reason why you see less posts.

2. The banner is about branding and directing people to Freelancer's projects. This forum has always been a business. It used to have cheesy ads everywhere. That's no longer the business model so the ads are gone. Now revenue is being generated through the Freelencer.com side, hence the rebranding and banner. Personally I think one banner pointing to a service people here might find useful is better than ads everywhere that no one cared about.

3. Outside of ownership there are two people here with admin privileges, myself and Shey. That's double the admins prior to the site belonging to Freelancer.com. There hasn't been any real activity from ownership since before either of you were here.

Daniel I'm not sure if by admins you mean me and Shey or you specifically mean the owners of the forum. Like I said it's been several years since any owner of this forum was active. As for myself and Shey, I've actually been posting more since the recent sale. I don't spend as much of my time posting as I did 5 years ago, but in part that's because I'm spending more time being an admin. It's also because I feel like I've been answering the same questions for years. After awhile you stop wanting to retype the same thing over and over.

Shey has been a very active member. She's posting more than 7 times a day. Tim you post just under 5 times a day and Daniel you post just under 4 times a day. I post a little more than 5 times a day.

**dWhite** · 06-22-2011, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

Shey has been a very active member. She's posting more than 7 times a day. Tim you post just under 5 times a day and Daniel you post just under 4 times a day. I post a little more than 5 times a day.

But the fact of the matter remains that you, Tim and myself have been here longer than Shey has. You also have to account that each of us has a ton more posts than here.

And before you say I am inactive, ask some of the active mods here like Chris about what I do behind the scenes pretty much all day here. An extremely large chunk of reported posts come from me, which I have been doing everyday for the past....year and a half or so.

Also it wasn't I who suggested the changing of the forums in this thread, that was Tim. I mentioned about it about a week ago in another thread hoping for someone other than Shey to pick up on it which never happened.

**vangogh** · 06-22-2011, 06:33 PM

First I wasn't saying you were inactive. My bad if I implied that. You had mentioned that the admins don't care and don't interact. I was simply pointing out that both admins currently post more than both of you.

I know what you do behind the scenes. I get an email every time you report a post. It's great that you care and report spam. I also think it's great that we have new addons to help fight the autospam, and that it's been greatly reduced.

It's irrelevant how long Shey has been here on the forum. I believe she was on staff on the Freelancer side prior to the merger and the new owners asked her to be an admin. That's a normal thing when two companies merge. Most of the current staff are still the same people that were here before the merger. New ownership brought on a few of their own people and removed some people who hadn't been active for awhile. Of course Shey is going to have less overall posts than the 3 of us, but you guys are talking about recent events. She's been more active than all 3 of us since she's been here.

I know you were suggesting changing the forums. Look up. I agreed with you that it wouldn't really solve the problem of the "gurus"

I think it's great that both of you care about this place and want to improve the community. Keep in mind that just because this place doesn't make all the changes you request it doesn't mean people don't care or you're being ignored. Sometimes what you think best and what ownership thinks best are going to be different things. Since ownership pays they bills they get to decide.

**dWhite** · 06-22-2011, 06:44 PM

By the admins, I mean the Freelancer.com ones. Outside of Shey, they are inactive and don't interact with us. As I stated earlier, the other admins (not Shey) just login, make something to promote Freelancer.com and further grind this forum into the ground and then logoff never to be seen again for days/weeks.

To be quite frank, I was about ready to quit the forums awhile ago and file a DMCA to have all my posts removed.

I have absolutely zero respect for Freelancer.com, even before they took over this place and drove it into the ground.

Freelancer.com might pay the bills, but it's us members that get them the money from here (advertising and what not).

A forum is only as good as the people who are in it. If there is no members, there is no forum, and if there is no forum there is no revenue being made. That is what Freelancer is failing to see, or rather what they are doing right now. Drive this place into the ground, maybe see how many conversions they can get to Freelancer.com.

This place was much better off before the takeover, or rather should have sold to someone else who know what they were doing. Selling off to a site that has NEVER run a forum, and doesn't know how to administrate a forum? That was a huge mistake, and besides freelancers and webmasters don't get along. Two different kinds of people with 2 different kinds of goals and views, which are both opposite of each other, kind of like trying to put 2 magnets with the same magnetic side to each other, they push each other away. That is how webmasters and freelancers are.

**serandfae** · 06-22-2011, 07:54 PM

Online business and webmaster issues are polar opposites? Not really. What's one without the other?

Steve, glad you've responded, but the post was generally directed at the Freelancer admins. It would seem that there are changes that could be made that would benefit the forum as a whole, and Freelancer, but their hands and yours are tied to effect them. The changes I suggest are not just because I wish them, but because they make fiscal sense. I would be shocked if they haven't already been discussed amongst yourselves.

For that matter, there were changes that needed to be made even prior to the merger with Earners Forum, but the ownership was unresponsive and absent. There is an opportunity to change that if the current forum leadership steps up. Surely you don't believe that the forum as it is now is as successful as Webmaster-Talk has been in the past?

And yes, I've been less active here, as have a great many long-termers, but that's the primary problem that could be changed; containing the SEOgurumaster problem was a side point. The organization of a forum does affect who it attracts, and the marriage of online business and webmastering is not currently reflected in that organization.

That is just one reason the current membership is alienated and the SEOgurumasters are drawn in like flies to stink. But again, simple changes might alleviate that and might make financial sense to the Freelancer upper-ups if presented as such.

tim

**dWhite** · 06-22-2011, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serandfae

Online business and webmaster issues are polar opposites? Not really. What's one without the other?

Who is on webmaster forums? Webmasters. How many freelance people do you see on here? Hardly any.

Who is on Freelancer.com? Freelancer workers. How many webmasters do you see on there? Hardly any.

**serandfae** · 06-22-2011, 10:33 PM

And yet, freelancing and outsourcing do not comprise a huge chunk of the forum; they're actually two subforums grouped together by themselves and not on the top of the list.

The largest portion is online business, which is what the site's now purported to be about, but it's badly organized to the extreme.

My purpose in these suggestions is, as it has been, because I remember what Webmaster-Talk WAS like and I do see potential in what it can be, for the end users and the new owners, IF the current leadership here steps up, because it's already been said, and it's painfully obvious, the Freelancer top dogs have never run a forum, and they're quickly losing the brain trust that has.

tim

**chrishirst** · 06-23-2011, 10:43 AM

I'll be succinct.

Part of the problem is the rebranding killed the community, the forum was what forums should be, a community, and webmaster talk was a group of overlapping communities.

"Tycoon" is a SOLITARY, individual descriptor, it does NOT engender a collective spirit that a forum needs to survive.
As demonstrated in this thread the prevailing attitude is "What do I get"?? Now that is a "tycoon" type of attitude, but a forum needs a "what can I add" attitude" from the members.

**dWhite** · 06-23-2011, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serandfae

...

In all honesty Tim, while your suggestion is good and strong, I believe it has fallen on deaf ears.

**serandfae** · 06-23-2011, 05:42 PM

Some have already made their opinions blatantly apparent; that does not mean that others aren't listening. I already know better. Others are in agreement with me. The question is how many, will it motivate them to action, and will that action if taken have a positive effect?

There are a great many who have invested much more than I in this forum who have left. Personally, I think there is still hope for the place.

tim

**vangogh** · 06:43 PM

Quote:

By the admins, I mean the Freelancer.com ones.

Got'cha. I would like to see them interact with the community more too, but again I'll remind you that our last owner never interacted with the community and the owner before that stopped interacting years ago. It's been a long time since anyone who's owned this place spent time interacting. I think that's a fairly common thing with forums as they grow. I'm not saying it's the right thing, but I see it on other forums too.

Quote:

I have absolutely zero respect for Freelancer.com, even before they took over this place and drove it into the ground.

That's certainly going to bias how you view this place then. Other than selling the forum to someone else what could current ownership honestly do to make you happy?

Quote:

A forum is only as good as the people who are in it. If there is no members, there is no forum, and if there is no forum there is no revenue being made.

True, but know that before you were here there was someone just like you here. If you choose to leave someone else will likely join to take your place. I understand what you mean and you are right that a community is only as good as the people in it, but there are a lot of people in this world. Communities change. People come and go.

The community may be changing in a way you don't prefer, but that doesn't automatically mean it's changing for the worse. You may not like the changes. Someone else might like them. Ultimately the people who own the forum get to decide which people they want to please. In the end they may choose wrong, but the choice is still theirs to make.

Quote:

Steve, glad you've responded, but the post was generally directed at the Freelancer admins.

I had a feeling that's who you meant, but I didn't want to the thread to go unanswered once I saw it so I jumped in. Besides the more we all reply the more likely the people you want to see it will see it. Doesn't mean they will, but it should increase the odds.

Let me also make clear I agree with you and would like to see ownership more active. In fact it was the first thing I said to our new owners when they introduced themselves to me after the sale. Even though above I said that a lot of forums have absentee ownership, I think the best forums have active ones.

I now own and run my own forum and by far I'm the most active member there.

Quote:

Part of the problem is the rebranding killed the community

I disagree with this. If the community was killed it was everyone's reaction to the change in ownership and not the change in ownership itself. What can't you now do now that you could do before. Everyone is still free to talk about the same things they did before. We can all interact with each other as we did before.

The collective spirit comes in large part from the community itself. The site has a different skin. I don't see how that changes the spirit. The reality is this place is still mostly the same as it was before. By place I mean the site itself, not specifically the people making up the community.

Quote:

The question is how many, will it motivate them to action, and will that action if taken have a positive effect?

What specific actions would you like to see taken? Besides moving the seo forum.

Personally I don't think we need a lot of changes to bring back whatever community spirit might have been lost. I think it just takes the community doing what they were doing before. Instead of waiting for someone to make changes why not just post like you were before?

I guess what I'm trying to understand is what can't you do now that you could do before?

**colbyt** · 06-23-2011, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrishirst

I'll be succinct.

Part of the problem is the rebranding killed the community, the forum was what forums should be, a community, and webmaster talk was a group of overlapping communities.

"Tycoon" is a SOLITARY, individual descriptor, it does NOT engender a collective spirit that a forum needs to survive.
As demonstrated in this thread the prevailing attitude is "What do I get"?? Now that is a "tycoon" type of attitude, but a forum needs a "what can I add" attitude" from the members.

Apparently, the last time, way back when that I was here I repped you so I can not do it for this post; all I can say is:

+1

.

**vangogh** · 06-24-2011, 03:39 PM

I still don't see what the big deal the name change is. I apologize for not getting it, but to me it doesn't really change anything. Had everyone here just continued to do what they previously had been doing I don't see why anything would have been different.

The community is about the people and the conversations the people have. If tomorrow the site were green instead of blue that doesn't change the people or conversations. To me it's the same with the rebranding. It only changes things here if the community lets it.

Is everyone saying that if the name went back to webmaster-talk all would be fine again? Is that the major issue here? I really am just trying to understand.

**serandfae** · 06-24-2011, 05:05 PM

OK, firstly I think the frustration present is made more apparent by the example that in this thread, for instance, we've heard from you but none of the Freelancer staff (not including Shey, because I asked her in this thread to wait for her colleagues to reply).

The suggestions made have been straightforward. You know just like the rest of us that rebranding a site changes its focus, target market and intent. But just to make sure you get it, consider the more extreme example: GreasyBurgers.com buys out a dieting site, and puts top level forums related to how great its greasy burgers are. Included in these are the printable GreasyBurgers coupons, etc. The dieting forums are pushed down to the last third of the page below the fold. Now, what is the focus and target market of this acquired site? Is that so difficult to grasp?

Now, here we have target markets that aren't entirely incompatible, but the organization and branding do not target legitimate online business, much less the webmaster focus previously had. A rebranding and reorganization are in order (and not necessarily in the same direction Webmaster-Talk was) to benefit both.

There are directions the merged forum could take that WT couldn't: For instance, some of the suggestions that members have made for years in Graphic Design contests, like prepayment, are far more possible with the merger, IF the new ownership is receptive.

But that's the question: IS it?

No amount of trying to drown out legitimate requests by throwing straw men in their way (Gee, you just want to make it like the old WT and it'll all be OK? That's the most ridiculous one yet) will work. You and Admin have both been attempting that since the merger. Everyone sees through it. Give it up.

If the other admins from Freelancer aren't going to respond, it would be nice to hear from Shey why not? Might want to do it soon before vangogh and Admin are the only remaining WT staff you have. I mean, sure, start a thread calling for moderators, but are you going to have any with experience?

Like I've said time and again, I'm only a thorn in your side if you see me as such. I'm making suggestions that would benefit all involved in this forum. But if, as Chris and Dan have suggested, the new forum chain of command prohibits this, it would be nice to explicitly know that now.

tim

**vangogh** · 06-24-2011, 06:17 PM

Quote:

I'm only a thorn in your side if you see me as such.

Tim I see you as honestly wanting to make this a better place. That's why I've been responding. I'm just trying to offer a different perspective.

As far as the owners dropping in on this thread I doubt that's going to happen. However no owner has dropped in for years so I don't see why it's such a big deal now.

I do understand that changing the brand changes things. Sure it targets different people and can lead to different kinds of members joining. However it didn't have to change things for anyone already here. Branding is a lot more than a name and domain. With a forum the biggest part of the brand is the community. Assuming the community just kept going like it always had very little would have changed.

I think a lot of what's happening is many people assuming everything would change dramatically and then doing everything they could to fulfill the prophecy they predicted.

Most people find forums through specific searches that lead to a forum thread. Changing the name of the site and the domain wasn't going to change that. If everyone filled up threads with the same content they had been threads would rank for the same keywords and attract the same people, etc.

I don't think either of us can really say what would have happened had people just kept going as usual since it didn't happen. Would the name alone change things. Possibly. Would the same content keep things the same? Possibly. Realistically things probably would change, but not to as great a degree as many people seem to think.

This community has changed a number of times since I've been here. The community you think is lost is very different from the community that was here when I first joined. Your community has a different spirit and different members than my original one did. This community will change again and it will change again after that. It happens to all communities. I think the best way to hang on to the good of a community that's changing is to keep it alive as best as possible so as much of the good can transfer to the new community.

It seems to me there's been more of an opposite reaction. I think everyone has focused on the bad and as a result has let much of the good slip away.

I haven't noticed any drastic change in new members. What I've noticed is most of the automated spam is gone and I've noticed people who made up their minds before seeing the transition through have left. I think had many of those people stuck out the transition much of what they wanted to keep would have stuck around.

The old WT targeted a lot of spam. Keep in mind the business model was advertising so the goal was to increase page views at any cost. For the last few years when I'd come here and click on the new posts it was generally 6 pages of useless spam. Is that what we want bring back?

Quote:

some of the suggestions that members have made for years in Graphic Design contests, like prepayment, are far more possible with the merger, IF the new ownership is receptive.

You're probably right so why not give it a chance? What I see is everyone demanding instant change. 6 months is not a lot of time when you take over a site like this. It's normal to take a wait and see approach. If everyone is complaining, demanding, and threatening to leave I'm not sure why the owners would want to respond. Perhaps it makes more sense to let things change and then once the dust has settled start acting on the requests of the community that's here.

Assuming you were the owner of this site and you did read this thread how would you respond? Personally as soon as Daniel jumped in talking about having no respect for Freelancer.com from before they took over I would have stopped taking any request seriously. The way to get people to do things is never to insult them or demand things from them immediately.

I can't tell you how our new owners are going to run the place. I'd like to be able to promise they will do this, though they won't do that, but I honestly don't know. However I don't know that anyone is really giving them a fair chance. Mostly I see anger and demands being made and in general that's not the best way to get what you want.

Again I hope you know I'm just trying to offer a different perspective. I can't speak for our new owners or tell you what they will or won't do. I doubt this place will ever be exactly the same as it was a year or so ago, but that's neither good nor bad. A lot of what's going to happen is what we make happen. I think the best way to do that is keep good part of the spirit that brought you here in the first place. I don't think making demands and lashing out will accomplish anything.

I can't promise that if you do what I'm suggesting the community in 6 months will be one you enjoy. I can guarantee it has more chance to be though.

**serandfae** · 06-24-2011, 08:53 PM

So what about Alaister? Isn't he supposed to be the other Freelancer admin who's supposed to be here along with Shey? Can't they present suggestions such as these? What exactly is the chain of command now? That's not the first time I've asked that.

I've indicated a desire to rejoin the staff, but I am concerned when people like Chris resign, and for the reasons he gave. He is not one given to rash decisions, and is one that has hung around through the transition. So what does that say for the theory that those who left just jumped ship right off? Many did, yes, but what does it say for the state of things when someone with more experience here than you or I leaves?

For the record, I'm not making demands. I'm making suggestions to help this community. I'd like to hear from Alaister and Shey together that they really aren't falling upon deaf ears. They're the ones with the bat phone to the owners, right?

tim