OK I am new to all this and trying really hard to do some SEO, back link building and keep my content going on my site but I have one question...

My site is all about guitar tabs, lessons, kit, reviews, songs, etc... so i thought I would do a search in google for guita to see what would come up to help with back links, page rank using the ggole toolbar stuff.

On the first page I found one site called free guita lessons at http://www.igdb.co.uk/ its page rank by google is zero. looking at the source code and the page, the keyword I'm searching guitar appears in the page a total of about 20 times and it has 5 back links. How did it manage to rank on page 1????

Link counting is a pointless task and tells you nothing at all about why a page will "rank". The toolbar PR is equally if not more useless.
ditto for "keyword density".

You are looking at three meaningless "metrics" and hoping to make or find a "reason" for the effect.

That's how myths are created, by looking for a cause for the effect, and thinking you found it.

Exactly. Instead of looking for such metrics, look at how the site is structured, and see how much other content it has related to your keyword. Look at the TITLE of the page, and see how the content is summed up by its headings. Also, see if the sites that you know about that are linking to it are of related topical matter, because those are the links that are the most helpful.

The toolbar PR isn't up to date so its hard to say if that is even a factor. Plus, PR is much less of a factor than it used to be anyway.

Thanks guys. Just starting to become hard to understand but with your comments I think I am getting there.

So would I be right in saying its useful to look at these sites that are ranked high for my keyword and look at who links to them, their content, internal links, images, headings, etc... and try and learn from it?

Sure, and see if you can do better. Making a site that has more relevant content is a start. Having a well structured site is good, but it isn't everything. If users are attracted to your content they will link to it. Plus, you can reach out to sites with similar content and network with them. It is a natural process.

A good title and a succinct meta description will go a long way.

So! What about the hundreds of other phrases that could be sending visitors?

Originally Posted by chrishirst

So! What about the hundreds of other phrases that could be sending visitors?

Cheers chrishirst my intention was to take a few keyword phrases for my index page like guitar tabs, and guitar songs for example and work with a couple on my main index page. Looking at others for examples of layout, linking, content, (not stealing just looking for ideas). Then I would take each section of my site say one on videos and concentrate on a few phrases here like guitar videos or music videos...

Am I going down the right track with this as a starting point?

Tony it sounds like you're on the right track. Obviously this all starts with the best content you create.

As far as why the page ranked #1 with few backlinks and PR0 there could be a variety of reasons. Does it still rank #1? Will it next week? Rank fluctuates so sometimes what you're seeing is temporary. If it still ranks the same in a few weeks then you can investigate why it might be.

It makes sense to look at competitor sites and see if you can understand how they rank where they do, what keywords do they target, what sites link to them. Don't get too caught up though in being like everyone else. Do independent keyword research and think about different sites that might link to yours. If you do everything like the competition is doing the best you can hope to do is always be catching up. Your competition already has those links and by the time you could get them all they'd have more. Think about the sites who aren't linking to them and see if there's a way to get a link from those sites.

And again this works best if you produce a truly great site with content people want. If your content is good enough you may only need to give it a push before everyone else is promoting you and linking to you without you having to ask.

Your "home page" is NOT important to anyone other than you.

Is there a reason for your site?

Have you a plan? other than SE ranking?

Originally Posted by wayfarer07

The toolbar PR isn't up to date so its hard to say if that is even a factor. Plus, PR is much less of a factor than it used to be anyway.

Yes, PR is not to say anything, until the present .. I saw it as decoration,
Previously, PR LinkBack amount calculated.
It is now, 1 backlink to your site can still PR 4 -5

I am agree with Wayfarer07 .See other top sites related to your site ,how they have organized their sites .

Good Luck

Originally Posted by chrishirst

Your "home page" is NOT important to anyone other than you.

Originally Posted by chrishirst

Is there a reason for your site?

Have you a plan? other than SE ranking?

Point taken chrishirst. Yes I do have some reasons. I play guitar and love it, I also write and record my own songs. Also I have an interest in computers, communications, networks (IT), and the internet so I wanted to combine all of these to share my own songs and provide some tabs lessons and guitar exercises as a kind of hobby and it started to grow. I'm no web designer but it’s become so interesting (and addictive) that I'm trying to learn more from forums like this. It’s when people put question like you have that makes me think and eventually helps me change direction with my site. It’s not or ever will be a business but it is genuinely of interest to me and I would like to succeed with it.

It’s not until you start you find out how hard it can be and I wouldn't want to put lots of effort into it for nobody to be able to find my site.

Chrishirst, you have obviously looked at my site and I know it is basic but I am adding chords scales videos tabs etc... and will continue to do so until I have a large content like some other guitar sites but I'm one person and it does take time. I have came up with some ideas like my review section and trying to get others to submit the reviews but again it’s down to experience on my part on how do I set up a submission section, how to I get people to submit their reviews.

Also I thought about changing parts by taking something out and putting in a section where people could submit their effect pedal setups for certain sounds like ACDC or Guns n Roses. But I went to guitar forum sites to pitch the idea to see if it sounded OK and unlike this forum these prats just put you down without any constructive criticism.

So again thanks again for all the probing questions and help it really is helping and I will hopefully get there.

Basic is good in this respect, and the site being more than just your own personal Clydesdale bank cash machine is a definite bonus, as it means you'll be more likely to make the site for yourself (and therefore other real people) rather than looking for ways to squeeze the last few farthings out of advertising.

The best thing is not to bother about search engines, just build your site the way you would like to see other websites in the same genre.
Add the features you wish they had and become the place for others to visit.

Don't worry about "keywords", "H1 tags" etc etc build the right site for the right reasons and much of it will take care of itself.

Originally Posted by connelly73

the keyword I'm searching guitar appears in the page a total of about 20 times and it has 5 back links. How did it manage to rank on page 1????

My 2 cents worth,

1, <TITLE>Free Guitar Lessons</TITLE> = Guitar in title

2, <h1>Free Guitar Lessons</h1> = Guitar in H1 "may or may not help"

3, Well over 200 back links some good quality back links with the word "Guitar" in the anchor text.

4, nearly 5 year old domain if these link have been in place for 4 or 5 years this is the most important part, this is the most likely reason why they rank in the serps for "Guitar"

old, trusted, quality, editorial, back links with "Guitar" naturally in the ancor text, this matching the "Guitar" in the Title.


On another note nothing to do with ranking the tool bar pr is showing 0 who knows what the current pr is but this is probably 0 due to them selling links and banners, there pr has been reduced to pr0...

Who buys pr0 links?

Who thinks they have put in a Site reconsideration with google?

A quote form the site..........

We currently offer various banner spaces on our website. These spots can be seen on the image above (click to enlarge). The pricing and ad limits on these are as follows:

Originally Posted by chrishirst

Basic is good in this respect, and the site being more than just your own personal Clydesdale bank cash machine is a definite bonus, as it means you'll be more likely to make the site for yourself (and therefore other real people) rather than looking for ways to squeeze the last few farthings out of advertising.

The best thing is not to bother about search engines, just build your site the way you would like to see other websites in the same genre.
Add the features you wish they had and become the place for others to visit.

Don't worry about "keywords", "H1 tags" etc etc build the right site for the right reasons and much of it will take care of itself.

Best help so far will now concentrate on my site and its content rather than search engines and traffic on your advice. Your right was becoming a bit obsessed with the other stuff and would be in danger of ignoring the important thing my site and its content.

Just hope it works and maybe a good few months down the line I’m getting visitors

Page rank hardly matters today . The trend is SEO. Work on your keywords and target your prominent customers.

actually for serp, it depend on the keyword strength and backlinks. even if they have less pr

Originally Posted by chrishirst

Basic is good in this respect, and the site being more than just your own personal Clydesdale bank cash machine is a definite bonus, as it means you'll be more likely to make the site for yourself (and therefore other real people) rather than looking for ways to squeeze the last few farthings out of advertising.

The best thing is not to bother about search engines, just build your site the way you would like to see other websites in the same genre.
Add the features you wish they had and become the place for others to visit.

Don't worry about "keywords", "H1 tags" etc etc build the right site for the right reasons and much of it will take care of itself.

Good info here! Thanks Chris

The number of backlinks Google is giving when you have queried is not the true number of it but it is just a sample. Even the site is only at PR in different from SERP. Even though PR affects your SERP ranking it is still differ from it. You can rank higher by doing many back links for your site.

even though pr affects your serp ranking

wrong!!!