Hi all, this is my first topic in this forum.

I forget those pesky closing quotes a lot, eg:<div class="something<---

It has seemed to happen to me quite often. Something will be broken and I'll bang my head wondering why until I find out it's just a missing quote, then I bang my head some more for being so stupid. Oh why, I ask myself.

Does this ever happen to you and if so, what do you forget when designing/developing a website?

Just last night, I spent TWO HOURS trying to figure out why a site I was working on wasn't aligning properly in Internet Explorer. I was cursing IE and WordPress until....I discovered that way up in the header I hadn't closed an anchor tag. Only IE was showing the problem, but it was my own fault.

I'm guilty of doing things like that more often than I would like to be, but it's going to happen to anyone.

Which, ya know...reminds me of something. Is there a good way to perform error checking on a website that doesn't involve me pouring over it like that for two hours to find my own mistake?

Sorry, don't mean to hijack your thread...just thought that would be an appropriate question to ask there.

Get in the habit of typing both quotes and then entering contents this works great for ) and } also! unfortunately it does not help at all with ; and that is always my stickler! DOH! ("slap!);

I forget those pesky closing quotes a lot, eg:<div class="something<---

surely that is a development/coding error NOT a design problem?

Originally Posted by chrishirst

surely that is a development/coding error NOT a design problem?

Ok, I used "design" as a universal title. I hope you'll forgive my neglegence

Originally Posted by OrlWebDesign

Is there a good way to perform error checking on a website that doesn't involve me pouring over it like that for two hours to find my own mistake?

If you find the answer to that question, please let me know. I'm not talking about validating, I'm talking about a program that searches missing tags, etc. Dreamweaver will sometimes give a code-hint in the properties panel, but that's only for one page. If I remember correctly, I think the program has a feature to check missing tags and such but I'd have to search for that feature and get back to you on that.

Just today, none of my links were working on a page when I happened to notice that none of them had closing quotes, i.e: <a href="http://www.something.com></a>, omg no closing quote, and I just wasted an hour out of my day trying to figure it out lol.

Some code editors have built in html syntax validation, such as Dreamweaver. If you don't have a local syntax checker, put the site/file to a public server and validate it at w3c http://validator.w3.org/ The result will tell you which line/column you have a syntax error on.

Better still, use FireFox for initial development and install the html validator and web developer extensions.

Hi All

I'm new here and this is my first post. I LOVE CSS and Dreamweaver but you have to understand how they work - and don't work.

Actually Dreamweaver has a great Validator built right in. You can find it in the panel UNDER the Properties. It will give you the line number, which makes finding the mistake MUCH easier.

My particular thing that I forget is the # before color - which can really mess things up. After awhile you start to get the hang of which stupid mistake you made and it gets easier to fix things.

All the Best
Wild Rose

Originally Posted by Whathadiv

Ok, I used "design" as a universal title. I hope you'll forgive my neglegence

Unfortunately so many people do, while there is a great deal of crossover, "design" is an artistic skill and so many designer rely on "tools" to do the coding for them.

"Development" is a more technical skill and very rarely do technical skills and artistic flair go hand in hand.

Originally Posted by chrishirst

very rarely do technical skills and artistic flair go hand in hand.

I beg to differ. Artistic creativity in the design arena is heavily dependant on technical skills. Without technical skills, the designer cannot realise their concepts.

The developer is more dependant upon technical skill than the designer, but in no way is creativity precluded from the development process. The manner in which a developer tackles problems is no less creative than the designer.

I have seen plenty of artistic creativity in code and can confidently say that if some of the more creative developers that I've come across had basic art/design skills, they could make a career out of art/design.

I beg to differ. Artistic creativity in the design arena is heavily dependant on technical skills. Without technical skills, the designer cannot realise their concepts.

Sure but a different kind of technical skill.

A designers "concept" is realised when they have done the artwork.

A poster designer would NOT be expected to go and print the posters as well.
A furniture designer would NOT be expected to go and cut out the timber for the chairs.
A car designer does NOT go and press the panels out or program the spot welder.

Why is it that "web design" also includes the nuts and bolts of the site.

I am absolutely crap at design but pretty good at development, give me a design in image form to work to and I'll build a layout from it.
I'm doing one currently that has arrived as a powerpoint slide show.

"Why is it that "web design" also includes the nuts and bolts of the site": not necessarily includes, but at a minimum, should include a working knowledge of the nuts and bolts process.

I would not consider a designer to be a web designer unless that designer knows the limitations of the web and the technical process of slicing into html/css. If the designer knows of, or can carry out, the nuts and bolts process of taking a design to a html/css template, then and only then are they a web designer.

Same applies to print, or any other field of design. A designer with no knowledge of building materials or manufacturing processes has little value in the furniture industry. A designer that knows nothing about the limitations of print, or the print process, has little value in a print design studio. A car designer with no knowledge of the limitations of materials or the available tech in manufacturing won't get a job in the car industry.

Web design includes the nuts and bolts because those nuts and bolts are what defines the designer as a web specialist.

Originally Posted by metho

"Why is it that "web design" also includes the nuts and bolts of the site": not necessarily includes, but at a minimum, should include a working knowledge of the nuts and bolts process.

I would not consider a designer to be a web designer unless that designer knows the limitations of the web and the technical process of slicing into html/css. If the designer knows of, or can carry out, the nuts and bolts process of taking a design to a html/css template, then and only then are they a web designer.

Same applies to print, or any other field of design. A designer with no knowledge of building materials or manufacturing processes has little value in the furniture industry. A designer that knows nothing about the limitations of print, or the print process, has little value in a print design studio. A car designer with no knowledge of the limitations of materials or the available tech in manufacturing won't get a job in the car industry.

Web design includes the nuts and bolts because those nuts and bolts are what defines the designer as a web specialist.

Well said mate. A web designer must know, at the very least, the basics of the nuts and bolts. A web designer cannot be called a web designer without having the knowledge to slice images into html and css. Actually the designer needs to know how to edit that HTML and CSS. Many people in this industry expect web designers to know Photoshop, Fireworks, HTML, CSS, PHP, Javascript and even sometimes MySQL. This is a rediculous notion in my opinion to expect a web designer to know all these technologies. It surprises me when a client comes to me and asks me to access SSH or create database keys. Although I have some knowledge in those areas, it's definitely not something I enjoy working with. Why wouldn't they hire a professional in those areas instead of asking me? My last client said I was the only person he trusted with his critical information in the database. What am I expected to do with that?! lol

I wanted to note something cool for accessibility. I'm not posting links but you can google it if you don't know what it is. Ivona text-to-speech engine is awesome and I just added it to the website I'm working on now.

Road to success is always so tortuous, but also because of these difficulties will only be meaningful to our success, we all work together!

Web design includes the nuts and bolts because those nuts and bolts are what defines the designer as a web specialist.

So you have decided to move the definition of a web designer to a web specialist????

I get the impression that some of you have never worked in the real world. Over the years and in many industries I have worked with some very creative people who came up with a concept of what was required to accomplish a certain task.
The design concept was then passed on to others who know what to do to make it work.

John Delorian didn't consider materials technology when he came up with his car!

If designers did NOT create concepts in fashion, buildings, cars, furniture etc for others to realise their ideas and bring them into the marketplace just about every industry would stagnate.

Every industry needs people to say "I don't care that you say it impossible or impractical. That's what I want and it's your job to go do it".
That is THE driving force behind development.
The ethos of the biggest ad agency in the world, Saatchi and Saatchi is " Nothing is impossible"! They do NOT constrain their creative staff by making them know everything about materials, techniques etc. They are there to CREATE not DO, there are other people who DO things.

Website design is the same, if designers were constrained to what THEY KNEW was doable, then the so-called "Web2.0" style would never have happened.

Truly creative people should NEVER be limited to what they can do. They are the ones that can move styles and ideas forward.

There has to be specialists. If everyone was a jack of all trades, then nothing would be truly great work! This is why companies have teams of people working on the same projects, each person has their own specializations.

"I get the impression that some of you have never worked in the real world." Wow chrishirst, care to knock that patronising attitude back a few gears? I think you can be quite liberal with your condescension and in this particular case, I think it's offensive.

"So you have decided to move the definition of a web designer to a web specialist". No, I haven't - the real world has. The real world has chosen terms such as 'print designer', 'furniture designer', 'web designer' etc to qualify the generic term 'designer'. In the real world, employers and customers want their hard earned dollars invested in people that are capable of producing what is required and the best indication of capability is knowledge and experience. The particular body of knowledge and experience is concatenated to term 'designer' to help identify capability. True, there's multi-disciplinary design. But even so, the real world demands concepts with a chance of reality.

We can't all be Henry Ford's and simply task the impossible of others all the time. The real world doesn't work that way. The real world is 90% real work and only 10% of the time, opportunities arise to innovate and let the creative juices flow. And I can assure you that DeLorean did consider materials when he designed his car. As the youngest GM division head of engineering, I think he considered materials and processes diligently. How the hell could he not?

All designers must have this speciality knowledge in order to produce for the real world. 'Fashion designers' was a poor example for your argument. These designers are arguably the most hands on with their materials and processes because their design process includes working with the materials!

Do you think Saachi would employ anyone for their design department without first carefully considering their portfolio of package and product design? Without such a portfolio and proven experience, a talented newbie would be relegated to a cadetship at best. An opportunity to prove their worth. However I will admit that Saachi is a good example of multi-disciplinary design.

Nope, I think for the most part, you're quite wrong chrishirst. The real world is arbitrarily 90% bread and butter work that we need proven experience to deliver and cost effectively at that. And most employers would agree. Employers ask for web designers, not goldsmiths. Furniture companies want product designers, not web designers. The remaining 10% is the opportunity to push the limits and innovate.

Darwin was a jack of all trades and a near master of many of them. The term "web specialist" is pretty stagnant for the web is far from it. New things must be learned every day, we must all learn to cook our own meals, fix our own cars, repair our own toilets, etc. When all these skills are acquired, it saves from having to pay someone else to do it. There is no need to be a master in any of them. On the other hand, we need people who specialize in certain areas as I've stated before.

I read an article that I thought you both may be interested in.

Use html-editors like Dreamviewer and it will put all necessary quotes for you

Need to remember to always use spell-checker, and link-checker whenever changes are made to a website.
It's amazing when even little alterations to coding can interfere/alter the linking structure of a website. So always use the link-checker when done :-) (And check Google Webmaster Tools for problems).